115: Susan Drumm, Leadership Coach & Author: The Neuroscience Behind Utilizing Music To Change Your State, Stress, & Sleep!

Are you feeling stuck in a negative mindset? Then, join us and discover how your playlist can make you feel better and shift your mental state…and sleep!

Susan Drumm, CEO advisor, American best-selling author, and leadership coach, talks about how music impacts her life. Her book, The Leader's Playlist, offers a fresh perspective on how music can create new neural pathways for you and help you develop the right mindset to lead in today's disruptive environment.

Tune in and get ready to groove your way to an energized, productive, and well-rested you!


Susan Drumm is a CEO Advisor, USA Today Bestselling Author and Leadership Coach focused on helping leaders and their teams to develop the capacity and mindsets to lead in today’s disruptive environment. She has personally coached billionaire CEOs, high profile political figures, prominent Fortune 100 executive teams and incredible entrepreneurs that set out to disrupt the marketplace.

Susan draws on many disciplines in her approach.  She has graduate degrees from Harvard Law School, Carnegie Mellon University and the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art.  Susan obtained the highest level of coaching certification as Master Certified Coach (MCC) through the International Coaching Federation.  Susan also holds certifications in HeartMath™, Integrative Enneagram (Level 2), EQ Learning in Action, Havening Techniques®, The Leadership Circle and is a Certified Forum Facilitator for YPO (Young President’s Organization).

She is the two-time #1 bestselling author of The Leader’s Playlist:  unleash the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership and your life.  In the book, Susan unveils a groundbreaking process that outlines how our childhood wounds show up in our ability to lead others and how music can heal those wounds.

Susan’s YouTube channel and podcast, The Enlightened Executive, is ranked in the top 2% of podcasts globally.  In the show, she spotlights ground-breaking techniques and strategies to help executives and entrepreneurs get the edge in personal and leadership effectiveness.  Guests include founders of these programs and the executives who have experienced them — and dig into what they are, what they offer, and whether they actually work to help you evolve personally and professionally.

Susan’s clients include C-suite executives from financial services, private equity, tech, healthcare, professional services, media, consumer products, consulting and law.  She has worked with organizations such as KPMG, Oracle, Viacom, Microsoft, Conde Nast, L’Oreal, A&E Networks, USS Steel and Cisco.

Prior to founding Meritage Leadership Development, Susan was a Senior Consultant for The Boston Consulting Group, Director of Marketing and Master Black Belt for NBC/GE and Associate Partner at The Trium Group in leadership development consulting.

Susan is a member of EO (Entrepreneur’s Organization) and volunteers her time with several boards and organizations including Selfless Givers.  Susan serves clients globally and lives in Scottsdale, Arizona.  She is passionate about travel, hiking, Pilates and healthy living and her puppy Jasmine, a toy Australian Shepherd.

In this episode, we discuss:

🎵  Susan Drumm's book The Leader's Playlist

🎵 Power of music to shift one's mental state.

🎵 What inspired Susan to write a book on improving people's lives and helping them feel empowered & relaxed

🎵 Susan discovered that music not only soothed her but also healed her.

🎵 Susan on finding healing and empowerment through music.

🎵 The advice Susan gives to those having trouble coping with their stress and anxiety.

🎵 The Power of Music: How does it affect our brain and emotion?

🎵 Susan's interesting sleep-night routine.

🎵 Using music to shift your mindset and embody your desired persona.

🎵 Relaxation devices recommended by Susan Drumm.

🎵 Visit Susandrumm.com and take her enlightened leader quiz -discover your unique leadership growth path and potential blind spots that could get in your way.

🎵 And more!!


Huge shoutout to our sponsor: Biooptimizers!
They are my nightly source of magnesium supplementation
go to  www.magbreakthrough.com/sleepisaskill for the kind I use every night!


Website: https://susandrumm.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drummleadership/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/drummleadership

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drummleadership

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susan-drumm/


The information contained on this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended as, and shall not be understood or construed as, medical or health advice. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.

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Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My name is Mollie McGlocklin and I own a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability and behavioral change. Each week I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from doctors, innovators and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper.


Let's jump into your dose of practical sleep training.


Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My guest today, I actually met at a mastermind event and I was pretty taken with her really unique look and approach at different ways that you can shift your mental state by the power of your playlist. You'll understand more as we dive in. But I think it's a really interesting topic.


She wrote an entire book on this premise of how music can be powerfully and strategically used to shift that state. Of course, with sleep, many times we can find ourselves getting into kind of the spiral of anxiety or stress response, both throughout the day and night. And what if we had on tap a playlist that we could utilize thoughtfully and in a measured and dynamic approach that might adjust over time so that you can actually notice the state and kind of record player that you might be in and kind of.


repeated dialogue as it relates to sleep, maybe some form of, I'm a short sleeper, I'm a bad sleeper. It's, you know, in my genes, maybe I just, it's sleep is not available to me, et cetera, et cetera. And you can see yourself kind of going into that playlist, if you will, and we can acknowledge that and then choose something new.


So we're going to get into the details of all of that today. But first, a little bit of background. Susan Drumm is a CEO, advisor, USA Today, bestselling author and leadership coach focused on helping leaders and their teams to develop the capacity and mindsets to lead in today's disruptive environment.


She has personally coached billionaire CEOs, high profile political figures. A prominent fortune, 100 executive teams and incredible entrepreneurs that set out to disrupt the marketplace. Susan draws on many disciplines in her approach. She has graduate degrees from Harvard law school, Carnegie Mellon university, and the London academy of music and dramatic art.


Susan attained the highest level of coaching certification as master certified coach through the international coaching federation. Susan also holds certification in heart math, integrative, Enneagram, EQ learning in action. Havening techniques, the leadership circle, and is a certified forum facilitator for YPO young president's organization.


She's a two time number one bestselling author of the leaders playlist unleashed the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership and your life. In the book, Susan unveils a groundbreaking process that outlines how our childhood wounds show up in our ability to lead others and how music can heal those wounds.


All right, without further ado, let's jump into the podcast. So I get a lot of questions around sleep supplements, and I'm very hesitant to just throw out a whole laundry list of possibilities. One, I don't think it's the most responsible thing to do. I really do believe in testing to see what types of supplements make sense for you.


And two, because I really, truly believe that most of the things that you can do to improve your sleep are behavioral, psychological, environmental, and nature, and often don't cost a dime. However, there is one supplement that I personally take every day and that I do feel quite comfortable with suggesting for most individuals to experiment with because of a couple of reasons.


It's high safety profile and high rates of deficiencies in our modern society. Some put the numbers as somewhere around 80% of the population being deficient in this one area, and that is magnesium. So magnesium has been called the calming mineral, and some report that magnesium can increase GABA, which encourages relaxation on a cellular level, which is critical for sleep.


Magnesium also plays a key role in regulating our body's stress response system. Those with magnesium deficiency. usually have higher anxiety and stress levels, which negatively impact sleep as well. Now, before you go out and buy a magnesium supplement, it's important to understand that most magnesium products out there are either synthetic or they only have one to two forms of magnesium, when in reality your body needs all seven forms of this essential sleep mineral.


So that's why I recommend a product from my friends over at BioOptimizers. They have created something called the Magnesium Breakthrough. And taking this magnesium before bed helps you relax and wake up refreshed and energized. And while we don't recommend that you go too nuts on looking at all the sleep stage classifications on all your wearables.


I will share anecdotally that many clients have reported improvements in their deep sleep trend numbers. Again, I don't want you going nuts on the sleep stage classification numbers on your wearables, but I do want to let you know about that because I know that many of you do reach out on questions of how to improve your deep sleep.


So I also love that BioOptimizers offers free shipping on select orders, and they offer a 365 day money back guarantee on all their products. Plus, they have a customer satisfaction rating of 99. 3%. Very impressive. And you can get 10% off Magnesium Breakthrough. Again, this is the same magnesium that I use every single night.


And finally you can get 10% off magnesium breakthrough. Again, that's the magnesium supplement that I use every single night by going to www dot mag m a g. So mag breakthrough.com/sleep as a skill, and be sure to use the code sleep as a skill for 10%. And welcome to the sleep is a skill podcast. Susan Trump.


Thank you so much for taking the time to be here. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you today, but just really thank you for making the time. Yes. I'm so excited to talk with you too. This is great. Amazing. I was sharing with you before we hit record that truly out of all the episodes that we've had so far, and of course it's called the sleep is a skill podcast with the intention of Helping in Many aspects of life to help support people on this journey of improving their skill set, their aptitude for getting great sleep.


And you truly will own this topic that we have not had a single person on this podcast that has your area of expertise. I know you have a wide range of expertise and but speaking to your most recent book, this conversation of leveraging. Music and your playlist, if you will, to support the state that you're in throughout the course of your day and presumably your night and what we might be able to learn about this and more from you is going to be really, really exciting.


So again, this is fantastic. And how did you get to be someone that's written a book on this topic of utilizing your playlist to improve your life? How did this all happen? Yes. Yes. Well, two sides to that one. I've been doing leadership development work and CEO coaching for over 20 years now and in the work and working with teams as well.


And in the work, I noticed patterns of leaders that kept them from being the best leader they could be. It essentially put a ceiling on their leadership effectiveness. And I think one of the. We all have superpowers, and I believe we also have liabilities, which I'm going to talk about, but my superpower is pattern recognition.


It's really what got me into law school. I went to Harvard Law, and the way I got in, I took several LSATs. I could see the patterning, and I knew how to ace that test, right? So it's, it's really this gift of pattern recognition and a lot of Well, my book is about is noticing the deep seated patterns in your life that hold you back.


And so what I like to say in this is that our childhood wounds show up in our leadership. Today, the book is the leader's playlist. How to unleash the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership in your life. So I first, there's sort of two components to it. First is noticing that we have these patterns and that the patterns got formed in childhood and they show up and they affect, they effectively put that, that ceiling in your leadership.


Now we all have experienced some type of childhood wound and some are actually childhood trauma. Some are far worse than others, but there's always been some wounded patterning and that, um, can get in the way. It can also get in the way of sleep, which we'll be talking about. From really being the effective leader you want to be.


And there's a, then there was this other component to it, which is how music can actually interrupt that pattern and help you build a new pattern or a new neural pathway. Cause what we're really talking about is neural pathways. You've grooved in a neural pathway and music is actually incredibly effective at interrupting the pathway and almost being a fertilizer to create a new pathway.


Yes, so well said. And it's so interesting that you spoke to this pattern recognition piece because that's one of the things that we find for people in their journey of improving their sleep. And especially in our modern day when they can use different wearables or even if they're Silent. The lowest tech version doing a sleep diary and just kind of logging their results.


You can start to pretty quickly spot some patterns that are either serving you or not serving you as it relates to your sleep. So someone like you with this aptitude is really an important asset and. I'm really excited to talk about this piece on sound and how did you identify for yourself that this was an area that you really wanted to create this book around and help people make a difference in their lives and how empowered, relaxed, at ease, etc.,


any state that they want to be in that they can kind of have available to them. How did this come to be? Yes. Well, from my own experience, starting there, I had had the end of a significant relationship of five years, and it was quite devastating to me, um, in terms of, you know, there was some betrayal, there were some revelations that were like, whoa, and I got stuck in this loop of resentment and frustration that I knew as a coach wasn't serving me.


But anytime my mind would kind of go back to that, I would be, you know, back in this loop of resentment. And I, I, I tried all different modalities and I couldn't seem to break it. Yeah. And what I, what I learned after writing about my life and looking at these patterns is it was part of a deeper playlist called I am treated unfairly.


Now, if anybody would have looked at what happened, they would have said, yes, you were treated unfairly. Right. So objectively you could say that, although there's perspectives on. You know, yeah, there's other perspectives. Sure. He has a perspective, right? Yeah, sure. But, but it was this, this pattern that I knew I needed to break.


I didn't know how far down the rabbit hole that pattern went. Let's just say I was dealing with, as we normally do as humans, the current circumstance. And I'm like, I have got to get myself out of this loop of resentment. So, What I found was that music was the only thing that kind of soothed me, but it did more than soothe me.


It actually healed me. And how it did that was I created this playlist called I Am Empowered. Uh, and it was songs that were all music that would have me get into the energetic state, the vibration of empowerment. Like I am a badass woman, right? Yes. And I would play this anytime I felt myself kind of starting down the something would trigger and I would have a memory.


Nope, not doing that. I'm going and put the music on and it was the quickest way I could shift state and I would play it hiking. I would. And the more I did it, the more I found I could let that go that I actually knew what to do when the trigger would happen, how to use music to shift it. And I started saying, gosh, there's something to this.


Like, what is it with music? Yeah. And so I started researching how music impacts the brain, why it works and started using it with my clients on their deepest seated patterns and helping them create a new playlist. And that's really how the origin of it all began through myself. I love that. You know, I actually was mentioning you at a conference that I was just at recently because this woman was sharing that.


She'd had a breakthrough with her daughter, her teenage daughter, who they, she was, you know, dealing with a lot of anxiety and stress and sleep disruptions. Of course, we were beginning there, but the mother had discovered that part of the things that the daughter would listen to in leading up to sleep were all these very, very sad songs that, you know, spoke to kind of how she was feeling.


So it kind of felt like in alignment with her state and yet. Seem to be kind of perpetuating the state that she was in. And then they interrupted the types of music. Now, I certainly, of course, referred and referenced your book to go in deeper and, you know, maybe have some more evidence and science behind the why and more strategy.


But on that soft kind of the conversation. Totally shifted their results as she started to one just kind of abstain from those types of songs and then secondly, beginning to bring in different types of music. I mean, it sounds like, oh, well, of course, but when you're in it, you don't necessarily get this.


And so I'm curious if. For the listener, if they're listening and presumably most people that are listening to this podcast, they're either struggling with their sleep or they're sleeping okay, but they want to improve it. Something often with their nervous system management is just off or there's an opportunity to.


kind of reframe how they're relating to their sleep and, you know, not being at the effect of it or the kind of sometimes like a victimhood state that we can get in. Unfortunately, why can't this sleep work for us? So what would you say to someone like that, that is looking to improve their sleep and just kind of struggling with that sense of ease or peace of mind?


Yes. Well, we know. Music has the ability to shift state because that's why we use it to work out, right? We know it gets us pumped up. And what I'm suggesting in the book is that we can use it even more powerfully to break old patterns and create new patterns. That we can, we're just scratching the surface using it to work out.


Totally. So I would say a surface level use would be Start to listen before going to bed to music that puts you in the, in the sort of emotional state you most want to be in. So if it's like for one of my clients, it was peace and appreciation. What music actually. Has you feel that what songs will bring that on and create a little playlist for yourself and you do have to update it from time to time because I believe the brain likes variety.


So, it may work for you initially, and then it wears off because the brain got used to it and you've got a layer in new music to do that. But I would say. You know, get really intentional about what is the state that you want to be in and what music has you be in that state at the sort of, let's say, level 1 and then level 2 is to really do some of the work that I suggest in the book to look at the deeper patterns in your life.


To look at where does it feel like Groundhog Day, where does it feel like you're stuck in a rut? Um, because a rut is, is just an interesting metaphor. It's really what deer, it's a pathway that deers go on, deer go back and forth and, and You know, it's like back, it's just road. And if you're a hunter, you know, that's where the deer are very vulnerable.


In fact, you got to look for good rats. And I think the same way we get stuck in rats and it makes us vulnerable, particularly to the level of change and, um, Uh, just escalating pace of complexity that's occurring. Now we're vulnerable because we're stuck in these ruts. And so what I would encourage is to kind of look at and and look at what are some of these deeper seated patterns and as we talk about in the book, what's the old playlist for you?


Mine was I'm treated unfairly. Other leaders I've worked with. It's, you know, um, I'm, I'm not good enough or every I have to be perfect or, uh, They're usually I am statements, but they're really deep seated patterns that you may not be able to see right like initially. But if you go through some of the steps, you'll, you'll start to see there is there is sort of the same.


And in fact, I can trace it back to childhood. So interesting. What did you find in your research from a neuroscience perspective that we can bear in mind to as we're starting to create these playlists, practice this, go through some of the exercises in the book to kind of get up under what that existing kind of playlist has been and, and.


Uh, it sounds like you're not even, it's not like you're making that wrong. It's just kind of like how that's been for us and just something to notice. Like a pattern is there and then we can kind of get out of that rut or kind of create a new record player, if you will. Yeah. Maybe more of our own design.


Yeah. So with that, is that something where you would suggest people stand in particular sets of, uh, awareness on this neuroscience piece? What are some of the ways that we can think about this from a scientific perspective? Yeah. Well, music lights up all regions of the brain. So, um, on an MRI. And in fact, if you look at music therapy that they use with Alzheimer's patients who are unresponsive, you play their favorite music and it's as if they come alive.


Yeah. Right. And there's a measurable increase in happiness in eye contact in ability to speak and a decrease in fatigue and depression. And they're monitoring them all for these symptoms. And this can be seen on an MRI where all parts of the brain are lighting up when this happens. So, um, I think that's just such a strong, powerful tool that You know, you think back to music can put us in a time and place like this, think back to you hear a song that you remember from your senior high school prom or something like, oh, my God, in the memory comes right back, right?


How is that possible? And I think. Um, I think it's important to know that music is highly influential. So, um, the one of the book, uh, books that I cite in there is this great book called Sonic Boom, how music influences the way we think, feel, and buy. So advertisers know this. They are. Using certain music, using certain jingles, things like that to build in that neural pathway related to their product.


And and the thing is, we need to be a little bit more intentional about what we're listening to. And I want to go back to the story that you told about the woman who was like, that's the emotional presence she was in. So that's what she wanted to hear, which makes total sense, right? When you're in a breakup, you want to hear the breakup songs, right?


Totally. Totally. Yeah. Which is not in itself a bad thing at all, because we do need to process those emotions. And, and it can, music can be really helpful with that. My point is when you get stuck in it, like I was like, okay, like, you know, at some point move on. Yeah, right. And, and, and yes, I need to do all the work to process it and feel it, but it's in a way I'm actually not, I'm, I'm reinforcing it now as opposed to processing.


I'm reinforcing and that's what music can do. It can reinforce it. And so I think with your, um, uh, example that you gave, she was reinforcing this state. And that's why I, I also talk about in the book, um, an interrupt. An interrupter song, which is your anchor song in your old playlist. So we get really clear what the old playlist is, but what's your anchor song in that.


And, um, for my, so for example, for me, it was, um, my anchor song was jar of hearts by Christina Perry. And so when I found myself going down, I'm like, Oh, there's Christina Perry. Yep. I know that song. We're going to change the channel now. So good. Oh, like this. Great. Way to interrupt that pattern using it.


Yeah, that's so interesting because, um, I feel like that can be really, really helpful for people struggling with their sleep. There can be sort of this old narrative of it's me, I'm broken, I'm never going to sleep again. Like this is kind of just how it is, or, you know, I'm this way, a lot of fixed states and yeah.


To almost be able to diffuse the weight that comes with those things and those narratives, I think can just be really, really powerful to, Oh, that's just a song I'm singing or what have you. And I can actually shift that and change the channel. That's fantastic. So with your clients, you have them really just go to work on.


Investigating experiencing new types of music or just kind of sitting with themselves with noticing the impact that this has and then creating that new playlist, but dynamically and shifting that up and changing that up. Yeah, so first we get clear on what is what is their current. Playlist or like to call old playlist because it's to be old and that has to do with firstly look at what's going on today that that where are you getting triggered?


What where's it feel like you're bumping your head against the ceiling and and then we kind of go back a little bit and say, where else is that showing up in your life or has it shown up in your life? And what are you saying to yourself about this issue and out of that work, you're starting to claim, like, I'm looking for listening for what's the underlying old playlist title.


And then once we have it, like, does that feel resonant? Like for me, I'm treated unfairly. Like, oh, yeah, I can see that. I have felt that there anytime things would go wrong. It's the place I would go. I'm treated fairly. Yeah. And so in that. Okay. What's the and so what's the anchor song that will best support you?


To interrupt that pattern. And then we go to say, and what do you now, what do we want to switch it to? Right? What do you want to be in? And mine again was I'm empowered. So what now we need to experiment with what's the music that has, you actually have that frequency, that vibration of feeling empowered.


Cause that's what music is. It's vibration and frequency, and we are all vibrational beings. Everything vibrates, including the earth. So you have an option to. Change the frequency of what you're emanating into the world and what will come back to you. It will respond to that, which is why I say, yeah, if I have this belief, I'm treated unfairly, which I didn't go around going.


I didn't think I had that belief. Do you know what I mean? People that know me. I'm very optimistic. I'm like, it would have never occurred to me that I had this going on. And yet it was only through writing about my life. I'm looking at the low points that I realized. I actually do. Sure. Yeah. It took me doing that as a coach who does plenty of self introspection.


Yeah. Like, I was like, I've got to deliver something to others so that they can catch themselves the way I needed to. So important. And I think even in the process of that, cause I liked how you pointed to, it's not like we're just being avoidant of these states where we're noticing, appreciating. And actually calling attention to that.


This has been a way of being for us and then also distinguishing that we can choose something new in the face of that while getting complete with whatever's there. So it's kind of this duality, but I also appreciated. So we met through this other group that. Looks at, you know, up leveling life and what have you, right?


And so one of these other mastermind groups, and I remember in your talk there, you had shared how this could relate to certain pieces of performance. So many people have performance anxiety, which really can lend itself to an analogy with sleep because we see for people that night after night, it can almost go in the domain of a performance and that they keep failing at.


Every single night, you know, and then it can start to be like, Oh, I've got this horrible record and track record around my sleep. And then we started to really believe that we're just a poor performers in that area. Now you mentioned as it relates to the example of giving a talk, right? And so in prep for that, that from a state of performance that we could actually prime ourselves to the state that we want to be in, which I feel like.


One, for a lot of people we work with, they're struggling in some way, shape or form throughout the course of their day, whether it's feeling unfulfilled or just not showing up in the way that they would like, or some sort of way that's disrupting their nervous system. And so one, having this ability for something like that, and then also for sleep, another.


Type of performance, but I'm curious if on the speech analogy, if you can speak to some of that, how that can be useful in times that people might because we see that a ton anticipatory anxiety for people if they know they have a big talk or something scary or a big meeting with the boss or whatever, that this could be kind of a secret weapon for them.


Yes. It's really when we're at the highest level of stress that sometimes these old playlists come out. So what I like to explore, like, what is it that I am stressed about? What's the real fear? So what's the fear underneath it? And what am I making this mean again about me? Yes. So what's the fear? Oh, I'm gonna forget my lines up there and what happens if that happens?


Um, I'm gonna look stupid. Yeah. So what's the underlying fear? I fear that I look stupid, right? Yes. Or I fear, and, and so underneath it is then if you fear that there must be some belief at its core that I am. Yeah, it could show up, right? Or whatever, whatever the language is, because you wouldn't have that fear if you didn't actually hold even subconsciously that belief.


Yes. So why? So that's where music can be like, okay, what do I want? Who do I want to be? Oh my God, I want to, I want to show up just, you know, being this wise woman. Wait, what music just represents that to you embody that feel that and then walk on stage. Oh my God, you're going to be a different person. Ah, love that.


Amazing. Just such a simple and yet profoundly impactful. practice and something that's so accessible to anyone, anyone can put this together. If there's not a financial cost, a hindrance in this conversation, we can all access this. So really, really, really powerful. And one of the things that we see on this podcast is that every person that we bring on people want to know, all right, well, We've been talking about all these things in relation to sleep.


How is this person managing their sleep? So I know people are going to want to know and maybe what playlists you got going on or what have you as it relates to your sleep. So our first question is what does your nightly sleep routine look like right now? I get, you know, have a set routine for getting ready for bed and I usually, once I get into bed, I start breathing very deeply through my belly.


So I start taking five breaths through my belly and usually my thing is I fell asleep pretty easily. Like I can fall asleep in like one minute. Sure. Where I have struggled in the past is the, is the two 30 wake up call and rain is going and the blah, blah, right. And, um, and so what I've had to do is manage through that piece.


Like what is that now? Do I want to go listen to some music right then? Hmm. Sometimes not, not really. But I've got to look at what did I do during the day to amp myself up and not actually give myself a little bit more downtime. And I think that's my own, my own journey is like I go, go, go, go, go, go, go.


And so my nervous system I think has trouble shutting down. I've got to find. Way is to like really chill, but particularly last half hour. I try to stay off electronics for sure. Like, what can I read and noticing the inputs that are what am I reading? Like, I don't want to read the news. I don't want to read anything.


Like, it's got to be very sort of neutral or calming. Love that. And then what might we see in your morning routine with the thinking that how we start our day and manage our day can impact our nights, which I love that you pointed to. And certainly that pattern recognition ability show you can kind of identify certain things that both work and maybe don't work as well.


So anything in your morning that sets you up powerfully. So what works is going right to the chair and meditate like immediately and I do do that every day. Some are better meditations than others. Totally. And what impacts that is my, my, you know, dopamine head of looking at the phone. Like it should just not look at that frickin phone until I'm done with my meditation.


And sometimes though I'm excited, like I generally have an excited personality, I'm excited to see like, Oh, what is it? You know? And it's literally like, there's a piece of chocolate right there. And so one of the things actually I'm going to start experimenting with is taking the phone out of the room.


It's not even a temptation. It's going to be plugged in the kitchen. And when I get up. I go to the chair, right, right. Do you not have a phone? Totally. Yeah. Fantastic. And then what might we see on your nightstand? And if you're traveling proverbial nightstand to the ambiance apps gadgets, and it sounds like maybe very soon coming to a bedroom near you, no phone, but what else might we see?


So I guess. I use two things and one is sort of a shout out to my, to my friend. There's these things called touch points that if I wake up in the middle of the night with some like anxiety feeling some, um, you use these, they, they hold them in each hand and they vibrate back and forth. And it, the studies show that it reduces stress, um, within 30 seconds, like 70% of stress is reduced in 30 seconds.


Um, so her name is Dr. Amy. Sarah and she invented these and they're called touchpoints. They're great for that. You could go to her website to get them, but I found it really helpful, um, because they do reduce the stress in the middle of the night. Um, so these are on my nightstand and the other thing on my nightstand is a melatonin spray that I just spray in the back because it'll get into my blood versus Tinking something that it has to go through the J Digest.


I just do like a spray or two. Um, to help me if, if I know I have, let's say the wake up is like 1 30 and I know have enough time. If it's like four o'clock, I'm not going to use that stuff. So yes. The strategy piece. No, I think that's really, really great that you have kind of a set of things that you go to and feel like you're set up powerfully.


Do you travel with the touch points too, or you do? Yeah. Okay. Really cool to look into those. And then the last question would be, what would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep game or set another way, biggest aha moment in managing your sleep? Yeah. I, you know, also looking at patterns and childhood wounds in particular, I learned, I went back and learned that my, um, has kind of.


A little embarrassing to talk about, but at five years old, I used to wet my pants a lot.


Because I didn't want to stop to go to the bathroom and because I was having so much fun. And this is sort of my, my, I have this exuberance, right? I don't want to. And, and, and so I had to go back and kind of heal a little bit of that because then it created embarrassment and a bunch of things out of that.


Um, because if you fast forward the analogy, I wasn't allowing myself taking care of my body. My mind wants to go do something else, but my body needs something. And now as an adult, my body needs sleep, but my mind wants to go and like, let's check the phone. And oh my God, emails and blah, blah, blah. And, and so it's like, no, I've got a, I didn't honor my body.


The way I needed to then, but I am going to do so now. So I think it was, you know, and I did some of that through hypnosis as well, and to learn and sort of see those linkages, but also again, journaling and doing some of the work that, that I talk about in the, in the book. So great and so relatable. I mean, I don't know who listening couldn't relate to this conversation of our mind wanting certain things in the body, needing something else entirely, uh, and having to identify that and be responsible for all that and manage that.


So really, really great stuff. And I appreciate you mentioning the hypnosis piece. Yeah, we've had one hypnotist on the podcast. We have another one coming up. soon, but just a really great modality that has a lot of science behind it to also be a avenue for people to work through some of these things. So really great call out there.


Now, people listening definitely are going to want to know how can they learn more about you get the book. What are the things coming and the exciting things tell us everything the exuberance? Well, I would invite people to go to my website and take a free quiz that I have there called the enlightened leader quiz And in that it's a, it's a simple seven question quiz, but it'll help point you in the direction of what could be the old playlist and what your superpower and liability is as a result of that.


So it's at susandrumm. com, um, S U S A N D R U M M. And, uh, interesting. I have an instrument in my name. Only with two of us. I know, but if you take the quiz, what you'll also do is you'll get follow up material that will point you to like, which chapters in the book might be Particularly helpful because in the book, I go through the nine most common old playlists that I've seen.


And, um, and so they're not all of them, but it might help you in determining your own. So just really encourage people to go there. And obviously the book is on Amazon. It's also on audible and, um, it's called the leader's playlist. Fantastic. Yes, definitely get this book and I really, really love this. I, after speaking with you, I had cleaned up one of my playlists that I do before talks and I just shared with you that I just gave a larger talk just recently and it was so helpful to have this playlist just, you know, kind of freshened up and with the, the things that just get you jazzed up.


So that was really, really impactful. And now even out of this conversation, I want to take more time to really create some other playlists because you had me thinking as you were speaking of some of the things we, Blake, you know, um, you met Blake, my, uh, husband, and we had lived in Southeast Asia for a period of time when we were digital nomads and Southeast Asia, we would be going to, you know, they would have Thai massages and what have you.


And so you would go in and just the music would be. Set to relaxation. And it's just crazy the difference that that would just automatically make and why I'm not leveraging that more routinely is beyond me. So I'm gonna, gonna take your advice and make that happen and just have all the spectrums of those different types of emotional states that you might want to have the highs, the relaxation, the, you know, being able to access those is really, really incredible.


So thank you. Yes. Yeah, for sure. I can't wait to see what you discover after you do. Oh, well, thank you, Susan, appreciate you taking the time. And definitely everyone listening, check out her work, take that quiz that's available and get some of that information right away so that you can make this really actionable for yourself.


You've been listening to the sleep as a skill podcast, the number one podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out something that I call Mollie's Monday obsessions containing everything that I'm obsessing over in the world of sleep, head on over to sleep as a skill.


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