Philip Welch is the owner and creator of WAKN, where he designs and manufactures custom blue light-blocking screens for TVs and computer monitors. In addition, I have a deep knowledge of red light therapy. I'm a former college football kicker from the University of Wisconsin. After facing health challenges in 2011 that ended my athletic career, I delved deep into discovering ways to heal and improve my health. Currently, my passion lies in helping individuals optimize light in their environments, enhancing circadian rhythms, and overall health.
In this episode, we discuss:
😴 Diffusing the brightness of lights
😴 Unique blue light blocking
😴 Blood sugar and sleep
😴 Living a circadian aligned lifestyle
😴 Red lights and biohacking
😴 Unique solutions for red lights
😴 Windows and light transmission
😴 Window glass and health
😴 Office environment practical tips
😴 Red light therapy options
😴 False marketing of panel intensities
😴 Red light therapy benefits
😴 Sleeping on a Magnetico
😴 Grounding and sleep outside
😴 Red light for biohacking
😴 Managing sleep through meditation
😴 Blue blockers and sleep improvement
😴 What can we learn from Philip’s sleep-night habits?
😴 And more!!
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The information contained on this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended as, and shall not be understood or construed as, medical or health advice. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.
Welcome to the Sleep as a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman and I am the founder of Sleep as a Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about.
sleep. Each week I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned life. Style is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health.
And by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.
Welcome to the Sleep as a Skill podcast. My intention with starting this podcast, the Sleep as a Skill podcast, was to bring in lots of different voices in the world of improving your sleep. And this voice that we're going to be speaking with today is actually a unique background story. stumbled upon his work on Instagram.
Don't you love a good social media background story? And the way I discovered him is because he was using red light in a really unique way. I highly encourage you to check out his social media. But beyond that, he is the only person that I've found that actually creates custom blue light blocking screens for TVs.
You can, any size TV you might have, he can custom create a covering for you so that we no longer are dealing with the blue light that comes from our TV sources and computer monitors. So a really unique approach to blue light blocking in your space. But beyond that, he does a lot of cool things with incorporating red light therapy and traditional red lights.
in his living environment with himself, but also as a family kind of affair. So he's made this way of life, this sort of circadian aligned lifestyle, his own lifestyle. So I think you're going to really enjoy our conversation. And again, just a really unique look at how you can make this a part of your day to day existence and have your home environment support your sleep.
So a little bit about. Philip Welch. He is the owner and creator of We All Know Nothing W. A. K. N. where he designs and makes custom blue light blocking screens for TVs and computer monitors. He's a deep knowledge of red light therapy. He's a former college football kicker from the University of Wisconsin.
After facing health challenges in 2011, the ended his athletic career. He dove deep into discovering ways to heal and improve his own health. Currently, his passion lies in helping individuals optimize light in their environments, enhancing circadian rhythms, and overall health. I think you're going to really enjoy this unique look at how you can make your light environment work for you.
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Just a quick interesting fact about sleep to mention, drinking more than two servings of alcohol per day for men and more than one serving per day for women can decrease sleep quality by 39. 2%. A sleep foundation survey reports, not even mentioning all the indulgent food and late night effects that often come along with it.
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And welcome to the Sleep as a Skill podcast. Bill, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be on here. Thank you. I am excited to have you because I have been following you on, thanks to the magic of social media, for a while now. I've been very inspired by What you've created in your lifestyle, like really, really modeling for us what it can look like to have this circadian aligned lifestyle, to say the least.
Thanks. Yeah, really. I think it's been about a year because I posted, um, a Halloween post where my house was all lit up red. I think that's when we connected. Yeah. Oh my God. I just thought that was so cool. So to give a visual for people. It was like, yeah, it looked Halloween esque, but my understanding is like, maybe 24 7 type of look for you, right?
So you're living this, and people I think have, when we'll talk about light being so important for sleep, I think a lot of people say, yeah, yeah, yeah, next, like, give me the supplements, give me the whatever to get me to sleep, but not getting what it truly looks like to live a circadian aligned lifestyle.
So maybe we can possibly begin there. Like, how did you begin having this Halloween esque looking place for visuals? It's all red in the evening. I think a lot of people in this space can kind of relate. You know, their neighbors think they're crazy with the red lights in their house. We're kind of like I started probably with the red lights.
Well, I had actually red lights. I can remember back to fifth grade getting red light like rope, uh, colored Christmas lights in my room and being like, oh, this isn't right. And then I got red ones and I was just like, something just felt right about that. That's coming, going back to like fifth grade, then like high school, I got, I actually was doing black light.
while sleeping, which is interesting. I don't think it was affecting my sleep, though. But I was doing the red light and a black light while sleeping through high school and then into college, actually, which is kind of I, I don't recommend that. But I just thought it was it's funny looking back at how long I've been doing this and then graduating college.
So I played football at the University of Wisconsin. Okay. And I was a football player. And I had an injury in 2011. That kind of ended my career. I was one of the top kickers like Should have went to the NFL, but I had a leg injury and that just sent me like kind of obsessed with That was kind of the start of the biohacking Dave Asprey about 2012 2013 So I started to listen to him and all that just kind of made sense from an early, you know early standpoint of like, Oh, maybe these super dead white lights aren't, you know, I, I never liked those.
I remember switching those as a kid and being like, I don't like those. So I have my red lights because I just don't like the, the feeling of them. You know, I could almost just like intuitively, like this just doesn't feel right. And then, um, I just remember like incandescent bulbs, like becoming obsessed with incandescent bulbs for a while in like probably 2013, 14, because I was like, this, the mood, it just feels better.
These warm dim, dimmer lights. And then, uh, I got obsessed with the, uh, red string lights. And I have some pretty funny photos of like how ridiculous my apartment became with red rope lights and things like that. And that was like in the early days. But then, um, yeah, every house I've moved to, you know, it gets a little bit more.
Uh, you know, I go a little bit harder and then the new house, I, I definitely really decked it out with red lights. Um, and I hold like biohacking events here and stuff. So, uh, I have the red lights on the outside of my house. I don't want to disrupt nature. So I actually, you know, I think about that. It's like, I don't want any porch lights or anything.
So we get mad fireflies in this. Summer. I haven't seen fireflies forever until we moved out to the country where we have no artificial light around our house, but I'm pretty sure there'd be no fireflies if I had just a regular porch light because they're really sensitive to light because they're communicating with these light signals.
So they're, they're an animal that's really, really reactive to, uh, you know, being disrupted turtles. You know, if you go to the beach, um, I was just, uh, in St. Croix, or what, I forget the island, but all the streetlights are red, and I'm like, oh, this is, this is amazing. I wish every streetlight was red like that.
Right, like the way that you've created this as a lifestyle and invited others into it, including being mindful of, wildlife, including bringing some of your people in your say your masterminds or what have you into this conversation versus like, Oh, this is something I do privately or, you know, or you change how your behavior is for societal norms.
You're not doing that. You're actually having people come into this conversation and bask in this red light and feel the difference has been what I've seen of your content. Yeah, it's been real interesting having, um, these events. I hold the event for, uh, Taylor Morgan. Yeah. He's a bigger influence. I don't have, you know, I don't like being the upfront, like, real talkative person on social media, so it's kind of fun to work with him and get these guys to come.
They get here and it's like almost like a event for them to heal and sleep. Um, it's set for, so it's kind of interesting to see how they react and everyone falls asleep at like 8 o'clock, like, right when the sun falls down. It's just, when you would think like when you get a bunch of guys together, they'd socialize and stay up and whatnot.
So it's kind of funny. Um, but they've all, you know, people come here and then they get it. They're like, Oh, I get it now. Like there's, there's something about this, like the mood lighting and just like, um, Yeah, how you feel. So, um, the other reason I got into this was, you know, having a kid, I have a three year old and a four month old and really, you know, you can't put blue blockers on them.
It's easy to be kind of lazy with blue blockers. I think, um, it makes sense. Our skin is amazing. I think there's photos, there's photoreceptors in our skin and there's a, our skin's doing so many things that, um, that's where I got obsessed with. Maybe, maybe we don't want. any artificial light, even if we're covering our eyes, you know, with blue blockers.
And it's nice, blue blockers are kind of annoying. You sit on them, you break them, whatnot. So I've kind of become obsessed with creating an environment where I don't need blue blockers. And that's where I got into my screens. I've probably been working on my TV screens for, for, Seven, seven years, you know, I've used various plastics and finally in like 2020, I got to the point where I was like, Oh, I can make a product out of this.
And then it's funny how it's like, I think I have a final version and every few months I'm changing it. And now I finally feel like I'm at the final version of my screens, but it's funny how it's progressed to, um, a product I'm really proud of. And, you know, that works really well. Yeah. And actually, that might be a great place to kind of dive into some of these unique solutions that you've come up with, because that was actually, I think, one of the original things that I was so struck by, because that was filling a void for some of the problems that I've seen with clients where we might address certain things with certain types of red lights that are currently on the market and some of these changes we can make and put some red lights, you know, over certain annoying lights and that sort of thing.
But the giant TVs, Very hard to fix. It is It's really hard to get material that actually works. Like there were so many reds I'd use and it wouldn't actually like block it, turn your screen like really bright pink. It's actually really hard to block. Those TVs are so bright nowadays. It takes a lot to block those.
Um, so the colors. I think there's only been one other company I've seen and that was a couple years ago that had a screen filter for TVs and it was like really, really yellow and it wasn't like a very good plastic, but I'm using, um, I actually sent you samples. I think they get here today to your house.
You know, like you said, you were going to use it for your Kindle. I was just a little delayed on getting those to you, but, um, you know, it's a real, real nice, flexible, like Withstands, um, you know, a lot, but it's kind of like a dark tint. Yep. I kind of compare them to my favorite blue blockers, which are blue block sunglasses.
Hmm. I like it because they add a tint on top. So it's almost for like hardcore, like sunglasses. go beyond just blocking the blue light, but also dimming down the brightness. Sure. Um, that's why I like those. And I actually wear those even with my red lights, just to like, dim things, knowing like, maybe light even stimulant, like Just in general, no matter the color.
Melatonin and stuff. Yeah. I used to sell red. I ran out of the red material. Probably in a few months I'll have, it's just It's been pretty hard to source the correct darkness and everything. And then, um, these manufacturers want a pretty large order to get them. So it's, it's hard to be like, I'm going to make money from this, uh, buying like a couple hundred pounds of plastic, you know?
Yeah. But I want to do it. Yeah. And what have you seen from people? Because is it something because I have experienced when I've mentioned for some people of like, okay, and we can dim the TV or your laptop screens or some of these things. And some people are resistant to that. Well, I won't be able to enjoy the whatever, you know, have that kind of behavioral change.
Have you found that once people put it on that they're more conducive to that? Yeah. What do you see? Amber's the most popular and I had, um, Andrew Latour from Gember Ed tested with a meter and it's pretty, it's blocking Most of the blue light and just having some of the green come through, but it doesn't change the image too much and most people think they want this screen.
That's really it's I've designed it to be easily removable, but most people once they put it on their TV are never going to take it off, even though most people have. That's that's what I've heard from people is like they think they're going to take it off and just put it on at night, and then they find like, Oh, no, I would never want to watch TV without this on on the TV.
And there's no settings that I've found that are similar. Um, I use an Apple TV to run everything. And the reason is because it has a setting in the, um, Do you have the setting on your iPhone where you click the button three times and it turns red? Uh, in accessibility, and I'm assuming a lot of people know that by now, that's same with the Apple TV.
You can set that and it turns the screen red, but a lot of blue lights actually still coming through with that setting on a TV and it's really bright. So that with the amber screen is like. Will completely block out all blue light. It's really nice on the eyes. Um, that's what I'm recommending people who have asked me about Um, getting the red, uh, the red material.
Okay. I want it. I, my, the only thing I got right now is, yeah, use, use an Apple TV if you can on top of the amber screen that I sell. And that's really nice. Alone, it's better than nothing. And it's a good way to kind of. Get into maybe, um, and there's a setting on dimming the screen. So I have my Apple TV set completely dimmed and then the TV settings dimmed and then the red filter.
So I go hardcore. I don't want to love it, but I. And then some people are like, do you have it, um, all day? And it's like, my screen's always red if my kid's watching TV. It's hard to, you know, kudos for people who don't give their kids any technology or whatnot, but especially when you have, uh, we just have a, you know.
four month old and there are times I have to like entertain my three year old while I have things to do. So the TV on red, I feel a little better about it. I can still tell it's like hitting that dopamine and he's slightly, he's addicted to, you know, um, Watching whatever shows he likes and whatnot, but I, I feel like it definitely helps during the day because it's like almost, it's taking an image, very colorful and stimulating to black and white almost, and there's still actually a lot of depth in the red.
I don't find. I mean, I, I can't stand TV that's not red now because I've gotten used to it. The amber, the amber though is really nice. And most people, uh, you know, it kind of dims the screen nicely, makes it nice and warm. It doesn't really affect the image too much. It's pretty great. And, uh, you can use it on your computer.
Some people like it on the computer screen. Um, so I sell it. It's pretty popular to use. Um, if you have a job that requires a lot of color accuracy, it might be better to use Iris or Flux. But, the, I honestly, I just like the screen a little better. Um, this, I like this, my laptop, or my screen on back's brightness, and then the amber screen on it for the most part at night.
Um, I put on max flux with the amber screen and I find that blocks most of the blue light. Um, it's hard to, like, I think measure that, but like I can just feel on my eyes. It's like, what do I like better? I definitely like, and I, and I do have videos on my Instagram kind of comparing just flux and then you can kind of see.
There's like a background blue that still comes through with those softwares. The software can only do so much with those, those LEDs that they're working with. Sure. And I know, I know someone like Jack Cruz is working with some people to create a entirely like red LED. Yes. That's great. And that would be interesting.
Yes, I've heard of that. It would be interesting to see if he actually comes up with that. Right. To be continued. Okay. So, one of the cool things, too, about, I definitely encourage everyone to follow your Instagram because you get so on the ground of these practical ways that you're solving these problems of, you know, modernity.
A couple of cool elements that I noticed in your Instagram were one, for your kids, like you were pointing to that ways to kind of have it all so that they could still play video games. But you look like what I could see is you brought them outside and had the color filter, right? If I saw that right. Oh, yeah, I was having him play video games outside, just a steering wheel.
Yeah, totally. Yeah, I try and have him outside. The other thing I have been designing and making is I've been replacing all my windows with the. Greenhouse plastic to let in UV and infrared light. That's an interesting topic of like, um, you know, my brands, we all know nothing. So I'd like, how much do we actually like things we repeat and whatnot.
So how much do you, how much does windows block UVA and infrared is an interesting question. And I think like I, I asked chat GBT or any AI I could and, you know, scour the internet. And it seems like most. typical window glass blocks, only 13 percent of UVA and then, um, no near infrared. And near infrared is kind of the frequency that I think is doing a lot in the body because it's the deepest penetrating frequency.
It's easy to cut it out in an environment. You know, if you're working indoors, I think it's, I think it's, That might be the most detrimental thing for people's health. I don't think it's really the blue light, but I think it's the lack of balance in all the frequencies. So my goal with replacing the window, so I don't know.
Where you're at, it looks like an apartment. Yeah, in Austin. Some of the glass. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they'll, they'll, they'll put, um, Tons. They'll put things in the glass or, you know, they'll, to filter out that infrared and UV more than regular glass would. Yes. So it's really hard to know, um, What percentage that you'll be blocked like, you know, if you're in your car or if you're working inside.
So, um, what I've done is I've replaced like, so I'm in my wife's office. She gets sun all day and I replaced the window with, um, you know, this greenhouse plastic double layer, uh, window panel and it almost like refracts the light and gently, um, And it's definitely, it lets in more, you know, it's UV open greenhouse plastic, which is kind of hard to find, so it's getting probably into the UVB, um, where window glass will block all UVB.
Um, but we're in Minnesota, so now we don't really have UVB in the environment, but I think just getting that infrared all the time. Totally. Um, if you can work near a window, um, one thing I'm trying to get into is helping people with, like, their work offices. Yes. Because that's, like, the most important.
place for most because that's where people spend so much time during the day and daytime is so important. And, um, you know, they're finding, you know, melatonin is not only just produced in the pituitary gland, it's produced like in your mitochondria, everywhere in your body. Like when you exercise, it increases when you're outside in the sun and you get a lot in the near infrared is what is really penetrating the skin and helping produce a lot of different a lot of different things in the body from hormones to, uh, the melatonin.
And that melatonin is almost balancing, it seems to be balancing, you know, it's a anti, like probably the most potent antioxidant and keeping us at almost balance of, um, You know, these reactive oxygen, uh, from, you know, whatever we got going on in our environment and stuff. So I, I just think, yeah, that's kind of one thing I'm focusing on is trying to get more infrared light into my environment.
Well, I also have a greenhouse that I spend out in the winter. Um, I do work on my computer. I move my computer out into the greenhouse with the same plastic and it almost becomes like an infrared sauna because you get really hot and sweaty in there. It feels tropical, but it'll be like negative 10 outside.
So that's one hack I've done. I mean, it's nice that you're in Austin. It stays pretty warm, but when, you know, when it's negative 10, it really gets people here in Minnesota. Right. Because that was another piece that I thought was really cool was how you got creative on making it a kind of family affair to get outside.
And but still get work done and, you know, do all these kind of modern things. So how to have it all. So that type of plastic, is that anything that you have on your site? Or how could people get a hold of that? I'm actually currently working on a YouTube video of how to make them. Oh cool. I did have them on my website to sell for a while and somebody could reach out to me and Um, I could make it for somebody if they want to on my email, but I had those on my website for a little bit.
I took them down because it's a little bit difficult product because you have to custom, you know, you'd really have to work with somebody and like design it for their window. It's easier to like teach people how to make these, show them where the plastic is. Um, so that's something I'll be releasing in the next.
Probably a week on my YouTube channel and on Instagram. Just because I think, I think it's an important thing for winter. Um, if you're not, if you're in a hot area like Arizona, Austin, the South, you know, I like them for the summer because I can't have the windows open because too much humidity gets in the house and you risk like, you know, driving up mold and yeah, and just, you know, you run the AC and yeah, it's nice to have something at least.
It's actually, you know, it's double layer so it's actually very, it'll be negative 10 out and I have these and it doesn't, I, it definitely ups our heating bill, but not a lot. Like, I'm actually surprised how well they work. Oh, cool. Um, so it's, it's an option. That's another interesting thing that I came up with.
I've had a couple other products that I've discontinued recently. I had grounding straps, like on my shoes. Um, I mostly use those in the winter, like on boots and whatnot. Um, They weren't real popular, it's kind of difficult to get people to drill holes in their shoe and install them, but you know, it's, it is, it was, it was a cool product for a little bit.
Ahead of your time. Yeah. Okay. So then, actually, that might be a good transitionary spot. So one. Because again, this practical application is something that I thought was really cool with your content and your company. So another piece of practical, uh, kind of takeaways is what you spoke to the office environment for people.
And so for people then saying, so say they're in like a building and they can't necessarily impact the windows or what have you, would you then have, and granted there's larger conversations of like, should we stay there? Is that impacting your biology? But people have to, you know, make the decisions.
That's the most common question I get of like, what can we do if we're in an office? I was, I worked at Target Corporate for a while, and I actually, my thing, I had an umbrella over my head to block the light above me. I, they put a filter in the lights above me. To like, you know, it's kind of a dark amber filter that they, because it's like you tell them you get migraines or something from the lights.
Um, it is something you can probably do in most offices. They'll allow you to, but if you can turn off the lights above you, I would do that. Um, I might lean towards getting an incandescent bulb. at your desk just to get some infrared, uh, yeah, near infrared that the bulbs create. Shine that down at the desk and just have a little bit of infrared coming in.
And now it's a black market now that it's like, you know, the legislation around incandescent lights, which is, yeah, I know it's getting difficult. I do. I am a fan of LEDs though, and LEDs get a bad rap because they've gotten really good. I kind of push hard on the LEDs, at least at night. Because, um, you know, we have the Gember red, and then the TCP, these are the two red bulbs I use, and they have what's known, the drivers are what converts AC to DC, and that if you get good drivers, and they've gotten really good, you can reduce flicker to less than 1%, while incandescent bulbs will have flicker.
Um, the one thing that you are missing is the, um, Infrared. Uh, there are also LEDs that, you know, I, I like Waveform or Philips has probably the best regular bulbs on the market. I think that is the very first thing that people should do is if you have standard LEDs switched to the Philips, uh, flicker free bulbs, I think they're going to be, uh, 2, 700 K.
Um, those are going to be like 3 a piece. Uh, Waveform bulbs are also Very good flicker free bulbs, they're going to be more like 18 a piece though, but I like the Waveform 1700K bulbs, those are my favorite light bulbs that are LEDs, they're kind of amber and more meant for nighttime, but personally, if I had any other bulbs in my house, those were the only ones I would use, but practical, most people are going to want at least 2700K bulbs, um, or at your desk, you know, you need some level of blue light.
But I I'm not a fan of wearing blue blockers all day. So that's one reason I like really putting the blue blocker screens on your on your screen. Yeah. And doing what you can from the lights above. But hopefully you have some windows or you can put in a little better light in your office to get some blue light and balance with more of the other spectrums.
And then some people will put, um, UVA bulbs like shining up at the ceiling. Um, I would rather get it from, you know, sunlight, but, uh, that is an option. I don't know if, uh, I think I would rather have that than nothing if I lived, if I was living in a cubicle. Right. Totally. If you were living in a cubicle, would you also speak to, so I guess some of my questions would be around innovative ways that you might balance to get some of that infrared light and some of those as much full spectrum as possible.
Now the concern is so many of us are living in these darkened environments and indoor environments often having such a low lux output. So how to, you know, so. Some from in the circadian world will speak to, Oh, you get the seasonal effective disorder light boxes, but then it's like so much blue light. And so I'm curious, any of your thoughts or what you found for people, one, how to maximize the amount of light when indoors, but then balance with red, or have you found a elegant solution for that?
I think the best solution is what I set up for my wife here with, yeah. This panel here and it lets on almost more light than a window does because it diffuses the light. I think the best thing you could do is be near a window. Hopefully that window doesn't have a film that blocks the near infrared and some of the UVA and hopefully that gets through.
If that doesn't, then There are companies that make, I like the idea of having, you could put near infrared, uh, panel. So I have a Gember red panel that I can turn on only the near infrared. And, um, he also makes, you know, with the red. There's times of days I would probably shine that in various ways if I was working at a computer.
I also like the idea of having a small panel at your desk just to like treat randomly. Yeah. This is my favorite. I think this is the best. Yes, I have that one too. Yeah, they're great. So this is the Vector Gember Red Vector and it's 250. People think they need to get these huge setups. Um, the thing I like about this panel is it's direct skin contact.
Yeah. And I think you, you definitely. It's, it's more discreet in an office because you can just like kind of put it up your shirt, put it, do your belly, do it up your spine. I think the spine's a good spot, like, thing to treat, viewing. Um, you know, kind of like a chiropractor where it's you're getting benefits everywhere by treating the spine.
Um, and you can do that while just sitting down, but I would, I would recommend that in an office. You could also set it up and then there's a button to turn on only near infrared and then you could shine that every, you know, once an hour. But obviously, if you can get outside once an hour, do that. That's the goal.
Totally. Yeah. Okay. And maybe we could talk about that a little bit more because before we hit record, we were speaking to some of the concerns on this in the red light industry, you know, there's all kinds of brands and things and, you know, it's so hard to for people, you know, a lot of people don't have.
It's like a big investment depending on what they get and I appreciate you're speaking to doesn't necessarily have to be so lofty you can also get some of these smaller size ones, but bit of investment and can be confusing. So wondering if you can share your best practices for like, which brands to trust thoughts on that.
Yeah, so I'm affiliated with Gember and he's hooked me up with a lot of panels just because I was like a fanboy him forever like, I just love the information he puts out. And. He's just so truthful and he is very innovative in the space. He's added a lot and following him over the years. I've just gotten like he, I feel like I wouldn't be, I wouldn't know as much about red light if it wasn't for him.
So, um, he, he's just a wealth of knowledge, but he, his. his products for the most part. So there's two ways to use red light therapy. One is at a distance and that's primarily what the entire industry is obsessed with is using these large panels. They also make the most money off of it because they can sell you these large panels for a lot of money.
And some of these setups are like 10 grand. And then they're also the the problem is they're all getting overpowered and every company is strange that like it blows my mind that they are allowed to do this and they continue to do this, but they keep they falsely market all of their panels intensities by like two or three X.
So when you buy any Gemberit, there's no one really telling the truth of the intensity. Um, the only one I like. I saw you posted about them, they, they're, um, accurate about their intensities, um, but that's, that's complete, that's like a thing that goes on your head. Um, but some of these, you know, Platinum LED, Mito Red, Juve, all the major ones, they're all lying about their intensity and they're trying to, they shifted the market to think intensity's better, where the research is showing that you don't want really any heat on your skin, low level, so, um.
Low, what does it go? Low level light therapy. Really like the definition of photobiomodulation is it, there shouldn't be heat involved. And when you add in heat, the skin changes, um, It doesn't absorb light the same as, so these panels are almost being sold as, uh, you know, like heat lamps because you get into these high intensities, people think they're getting more and they've, they like that, that feeling of warm, but that's actually like not what you want from these panels when you do direct skin contact, the panels are going to get warm, but it's not from the intensity of the light for the most part.
Um, um, Um, Um, And so I think that's a big issue is that they're blind and you don't really know how to use it at what distance. All the research, so they, they all point to the research and the research on red light therapy. There's like, I think like 7, 000 studies, 6, 000, something like that. They always point to on the red light being effective and all, most of those are done with, um, cold lasers and those are used directly on the skin and the skin reflects a lot of this.
the light. So you lose a lot of the light and kind of like the agreement in the scientific community doing this research is that, uh, photobiomodulation needs to be done directly on the skin, um, to get the most benefits. And that's how most of the research is done. There's 11 studies using Full body red light panels at a distance and they do have pretty good results.
Um, you know, like one that stands out to me was on women's soccer players and their HRV scores improved. Um, and which, you know, shows they had better recovery and they got, they had, they got to sleep like an hour less. It's or like maybe a half hour less and have the same quality of sleep. So that was, that was interesting to see.
There is a huge effect of having red light, like your skin is your largest organ. So obviously if you're treating your skin at a large area, but nobody's really telling people that. There is a biphasic dose response with red light to where almost less is more where you don't want to people get these panels and they want to use them like every single day.
A lot of people. There's no right or wrong. People are deficient like these are kind of things. People say they're deficient in red light that you should be getting You know, just feel it. But I think there needs to be, you should know the intensity of your panel and they should be treated like medical devices where the most of the industry isn't doing that.
That's something Gember is doing, which is the reason why, you know, I've affiliated myself and kind of become obsessed with this. I feel obligated to help people use these devices properly. And an example why I think this is serious. So my mom was told she needed knee surgery and needed to have her knee replaced.
So I'm like, man, that'll. That'll really mess up your life. Like, don't do that, please. So I got her one of these, um, you know, one of these, and I don't think she would get the same results if she was using a panel. Um, like everyone, most, the average person is using at a distance. She can use that directly on her skin.
Um, I, I just like seeing how these panels can be used to treat serious things with like older people. I love giving it to like my grandma or, um, People with, uh, that would never stand in front of some of these high powered lights. So I, I'm just really passionate because I think these things are powerful, but I think a lot of people aren't using them properly.
And um, one thing, so the other one I really like. is to improve. And this is really, this is really low level. Like it's, this is 44 milliwatts per centimeter squared. And this is eight milliwatts per centimeter squared. So much lower and you can do longer treatments. And a lot of the research shows like you don't need really high intensity.
The intensity that we're done in the studies at a distance, we're using 27 milliwatts per centimeter squared with a Thor, Novo Thor bed and Novo Thor beds are. I mean, they've kind of become the industry standard for doing studies, but they're actually really high in UMass and really high in Flickr. So I think they're, they're pretty bad.
So if they're getting those results with, um, With sleep, it'd be really interesting to use better red light panels that are lower EMF, don't flicker, um, So I'm not like, so, so your VioLite that you posted about, or somebody, maybe you just reposted a story that it helped their HRV score, which is fascinating.
They kind of sell it as this device for, um, You know, mental health, uh, you know, recovering from brain damage, things like that. It's like a 3, 000 device that you wear. It's 810 nanometer, which is a great frequency. Um, that's the deepest penetrating frequency of light. Um, there's just a window that Um, most people think the deepest penetrating frequencies are the longer waves and the far infrared, but those actually, those waves interact with water.
And that's why in an infrared sauna, you heat up the skin. Um, you heat up the water molecules and then it radiates it into the body. So it's, it's being absorbed at the surface of the skin, just like UV light, but the light that isn't absorbed by water that actually gets through melanin and through those layers of skin is.
Um, the near infrared and red, but particularly A10, but you could use one of these and, you know, hold it here for five minutes, here for five minutes, and for 250, you're getting, um, you know, similar results that you get from that. The nose thing that they put in their nose, that's doing blood irradiation for the most part, not really getting the brain, but you can do blood irradiation on the wrist, on the, on the neck and the back of the knee.
Yeah. And I also tell people not to do the same area every single day to do, to mix it up. Um, so if you have a knee injury, or let's say you're doing, Don't red light your brain every day. Do it like twice a week. Uh, if you have a knee injury, do it twice a week and then radiating other parts of your body.
Somehow that red light, you know, you can get effects from your for your brain by red lighting your foot. So what I like about this is you're not overdoing it. You can do a different part of your body every day. Um, you know, I like to concentrate the stomach. It seems like a big area. I do a lot of that.
Okay. I do a lot of stomach before bed. What I like about this is you're not getting it in your eyes if you go to bed. It's got a timer on it. 10 minute timer is huge so you don't over treat yourself. Because there's times I've fallen asleep under my red light panels, you know, I've got them hanging and it's like a bed.
It's like you don't want to overdo, um, you want to stick to strict times and make sure you don't overdo it and change spots. Um, I think that's important to tell people. Well, so one, I feel like there's so much that you've thought deeply about and are practicing in your own life. So I'm actually really excited to hear your answers to these four questions that we ask everyone because I feel like you'll have some unique out of the box answers.
So our first question that we ask everyone is what does your nightly sleep routine look like right now? And you can take that wherever you want. One thing I'm working on is It's eating before the sun sets. I think that's one of the most important things. And the winter, you know, it's, it's setting really early now, um, getting early and earlier.
So I'm going to start, you know, really have a goal of eating at like four o'clock and then being done. And then, um, another big thing I have, our entire family sleeps in the same bed. Uh, with, you know, a baby, a three year old, my wife, kid, and then two dogs. Yeah. Um, I think just from a, it helps to be next to my kids and it affects my sleep less if I don't have to get up.
Sure. So, I mean, my wife mostly deals with the baby at night, so my sleep's pretty good right now. But. And it's kind of always been, it just doesn't make sense for me to put my kid in another room personally. And I think it helps my sleep too. And their sleep, they're not afraid of the dark. Um, so they get to sleep in complete darkness.
I think a blackout shade is key. Um, I sleep on a magnetico. I don't know if you've ever heard of those. Um, we probably cycle it every three months just to like, I don't know what it's doing. It's a complex thing. But it's like, do I feel the effects? Do I not? And I do think I sleep better on it. But now I just got an aura ring so I can test that.
Oh, I would love to see what your results are with that. And I just I've just done it two days. And like so my. First day I slept for six hours, 36 minutes, two hours of deep sleep, one hour of REM, and it said I had 82 efficiency. Then last night, I slept five hours and 30 minutes, and it said my sleep score was 68, which isn't good.
Deep sleep was three hours, eight minutes, um, which was 55 percent of my sleep. And then my REM sleep was 43 minutes. So I don't know if in my HRV was 61 and I woke up feeling great, but so I don't know if the sleep score really matters if you're waking up and feeling good. I was just surprised that I, you know, I've been sleeping less and getting a lot out of it.
So it was interesting to see that. Well, I'm excited that you have the ring. So for anyone listening to, uh, one cool thing about the Oura Ring in the beginning of its use is that it's learning about you. So that will continue to get a sense of what are your behaviors around your sleep. What are your norms and any kind of baselines that you're deviating from?
And then to your point, yeah, I think one of the tricky things is some people can get very nervous around The sleep score, the readiness score, overthinking it, right? Yeah, and then I like what you're doing, though, because you're digging deeper into what are the individual stats that they're making up to create that score.
And so how we like to think about the sleep page versus the readiness page is then the readiness page is almost this window into your nervous system. So we can understand, like, how is your nervous system functioning? And when you have years of data, it becomes super clear. Like, I just got off a client call because every person we work with is wearing the aura ring.
This client had been wearing an oaring for about five years or so, and had been averaging around, say, like 130 HRV, you know, really healthy, doing great, right? And then something happened along the way, and then he dropped down to averaging from that original HRV baseline, and that's that one of our best windows into our nervous system, drops down to averaging around 60 now.
So it really, that's a huge drop. And now it's been like that for the last like year and change. So, you know, we reviewed some of that and then got some blood work done. His testosterone had totally tanked, vitamin D tanked, you know, he had a parasite, like just a number of things. So provide this really cool opportunity for us to have these red flags that we might not have necessarily noticed.
on our own. I mean, probably, you know, you feel different. Yeah. But it gives you that objective data too, which is really cool. So excited to follow. I feel like I'm recovering too. Like I, I had a friend in town that just left and we stayed up probably till midnight every night playing video games. So it's like, I had a week of being like a normal human of playing video games again.
It's like with my childhood friends. So I'm kind of recovering from sleep. Oh yeah. I'm excited to see what you're going to discover with all of your Tips and tricks. It might take like five days, you know, to recover from like doing a weak bender of staying up late, you know, totally. It'll be interesting.
And also what's interesting too is a sleep staging. Now, historically, it wasn't on all of these wearables, not the most accurate. However, with the new algorithm upgrade, the thinking is that now it's one of the more accurate on the market for the sleep stage classifications and If we're finding if we take a little bit more seriously, some of the readouts on deep and REM now with this new algorithm, then certainly the breakdown that you're speaking to is pretty solid given the amount of hours you had and then the amount of deep sleep and REM you're getting.
So really interesting. We'll have to follow that. Hopefully you'll share some on social. Yeah, I know. I know you have a lot of data, so I'll have to follow and see. what you've found out from that. Totally. And that's why I borrowed it from a friend because I was like, I know you have all this, and I've kind of held off.
I'm like, I don't want to overthink my sleep, so I've held off. But now I'm like, oh, this is actually kind of cool because it gives me, uh, it allows me to experiment. Oh, I think you're I'm really interested with. Yeah. Totally, with all of the things you do. So it's pretty cool. Yeah. Okay, sorry to derail us, but anything else we missed in your evening routine?
I used to ground, And recently I've changed grounding. I don't know if if you you ground or anything. Yeah. And I changed just based off of listening to um, people who know a lot of more about, you know, um, these building biologists who like, you know, detect your house and whatnot. And they're like, well, if you have any electrical fields, they're going through your body and then to the ground.
So, and you're, you're not really able to measure that unless you have like two, um, body, uh, voltage meters. So I'm like, it's just a complex thing when I, I, I sleep in a tent sometimes in the summer. Like, uh, probably my kid really likes it too. And then I'll ground out there though. And I sleep really good outside.
And when it's cold, when it, yeah, that's when I'll usually do it, you know, when it's fifties or forties at night, um, that's when I'll sleep outside. So in the fall and then the spring, um, one other thing I've been playing around with that. I swear, like I I've been taking, um, R13 butanazyl. That's uh, HVMN ketones.
And I swear, like, I take those when I know I'm going to be stressed or like, get less sleep. And I think I can get less sleep, but I'll, I'll experiment with the, the Oura ring. It's definitely a hypothesis that it helps with sleep. I don't know. It seems. better than taking exogenous ketones because it's something that was fermented from sugars and it goes through the liver and your liver controls it instead of just like mainlining ketones with some of the ketone esters.
So I'm cautious about it though. I don't take very many supplements. Um, but that's one of the few things I play around with right now. Um, obviously the red lights, blue blockers, um, I'm religious about light and I have been for a while and I definitely feel hungover if I ever like You know, if you, I'd say you were out this last weekend at like that light, whatever you were at.
Yes. A neon party starting at 9pm. What is wrong with people? I mean, I don't even have to drink and I get like hung over from just being, you know, out and loud area with a lot of bright lights. Same. Right. And you got to recover. Oh, my God. Yeah. 100%. Well, then, speaking to recover or, you know, just how you're managing then the following day, what might we see in your morning kind of quote unquote sleep routine?
I like to cold dub in the morning. I'm going to start pushing that a little bit harder. I listened to your, um, episode with that guy a few weeks ago. Oh, from Mars Go Forge? Yeah. I think that's real interesting of like doing that before a workout. So what I'm trying to do is cold tub and do longer exposures at like 55 degrees and then work out and I would like to eat breakfast in the morning, but I know there's an effect that if you eat breakfast, like right after cold dubbing, it can stunt some of the effects from it.
So I'm trying to eat cold tub, eat cold tub again longer, and then wait until lunch to eat and have like a four hour window. Um, And then, you know, the light, I like to get sunrise. Lately, I've been playing around with, um, red lighting using red light on my eyes. You want to use a panel that you know the intensity and try and stick around like under, I like 10 or under milliwatts.
10 milliwatts per centimeter squared. Um, so that's getting bright red and infrared light in the eyes. The eyes are an interesting spot to red light, I think, because, um, it's the most oxygen intensive organ in your body. So there's a lot of mitochondria and you don't need a lot of stimulation to, um, have an effect there.
But I, I do find instead of doing Blue light to wake up. I'm doing the red light and I especially like the improve because it's real low intensity and I kind of like move my eyes around. That's what I'm doing like first thing in the morning since it's been kind of I'll wake up at like 5530 and it doesn't get bright out to like seven.
Um, and then I go outside and ground and get my kids outside. And get as much skin out inside and spend as much time outside as I can. So that's kind of my routine. Right. And when it gets cold, then I have the greenhouse. Yep. So you bring everyone kind of out in there from the sounds of it. And I actually, I have a hot tub.
So that I keep at a reasonable temp when I put like my three year old in there, but it allows us in like the middle of winter to spend an hour or two outside in the morning at sunrise. So I think it's an underrated biohacking tool. You know, people have a lot of expensive You know, I think kind of pointless things, a hot tub, you know, it's the cheapest one I could probably get.
And I find it's, it's one of the best investments just because it allows me to get outside when it's cold out and it's kind of like playtime for my kid and, um, but that's going to be a more difficult thing to do. Um, but yeah, we do, we do the hot tub in the morning after mixing with the cold. You will see it depending on the day.
My kid does cold tubbing too. I usually have to give him to incentivize him some money though. So it doesn't feel like 2. I'll give you 2. All right. And then he enjoys it though. He doesn't like it until he gets out of it and then he's like, Oh, that was great. Oh, that's amazing. Love it. Okay, and then what might we visually see on your nightstand or maybe proverbial nightstand if you're traveling or just in your, in your space?
Red flashlight. I think everyone should have red flashlights because Yes. I actually, you know, The video that you saw my like my Halloween video with all these red lights and I like to post all these videos of my house with all these red lights, but often I turn off all those lights because I do find even though that stimulates the body so I feel better about having a red flashlight.
I wear like, you know, a 15 headset from my house. Amazon. Amazon, sure. And, uh, you can get around with that at night and the lights shining out instead of shining in your eyes from like a light fixture. So that's key. That's one of the first things, easiest things you can do is turn off your lights and have a red flashlight.
Totally. So that's really the only thing next to my bed. I love that. Yeah, my phone's on airplane as far away from me as possible. Well, to that point, another out of the box thing I saw you doing was, um, the water resistant red panels with near the shower. Is that something you're still doing? Oh, and don't you, you have, uh, the new, water proof full body panel.
Yes, I do! That was really I like that panel because the intensity is low. You could actually, you could actually lay that and use it directly on the skin. It's so low emf and the intensity is right, but at a distance, you know, it's right around like 20 milliwatts. So that's a sweet panel because I I just I'm a real fan of the low intensity panels compared to these other ones that are like way, way too intense.
I think the magic is in low intensity with the red light panels. And that one is really sweet. Um, but yeah, I have a red light in my shower and, uh, it helps my wife. My wife loves it in there because, um, It makes your hair stand out so she can shave easier. We don't have a lot of light that gets in the bathroom, too.
Mm hmm. So, and it's waterproof. You gotta be careful. So I have, he makes, I think, four waterproof panels now, maybe five. Mm. But the beam panel is what I have in my shower. Mm hmm. Um, on the outside of my house, I have the Vulcans, and those are big, big, um, Bright lights. Floodlight almost. But red. Yeah. I have two floodlights on my house.
I have three floodlights on my house. Yeah. Totally. Um, he just released a new one that's 200. That's, Brighter than the beam and that one is really cool if you wanted like for 200 to have a light outside of your house. Um, that's a good entry instead of the Vulcan. Those other ones are like 700. Um, 200 is a little more reasonable for a light on the house, but still like you could just get, um, red light bulbs too for your patio lights or whatnot.
Yeah, because I think a lot of this is like compliance, you know, like people might get these things, but then they don't know where to put it, that they'll use it frequently or get as much exposure without all the clothes and all these things on. So some of these ways to make it more user friendly, and I think you also did having it next to the rebounder, if I saw that correctly, right?
I don't know. Yeah, I got the I got the trampoline. Yeah, it's more for show. I don't really do that much like jumping. I mostly lay down and do red light and kind of meditate or something. Sure. Um, The rebounder's fun though. Uh, the other thing I'll point out, so like light bulbs, my favorite, you have probably I travel with those all the time, the corn cobs.
They were too bright for me at first, but now I've like gained an appreciation for like, just knowing what fixtures to put them in and like, to really diffuse the light and man, they're, they're amazing because most lights aren't bright enough. Right. The other bulb that I use is a TCP if you look it up, um.
Yes, I have that one. It's a TCP 343039. These are pretty sweet. Um, they're going to be 6. 30 and a little more orange. The Gemba Red though, they're, I think they're like 30. Uh, but these are so bright and you need, especially when it's using 6. 60, which is a deeper red. Um, I, I was making a post today how I put that behind my TV.
And I think it's beneficial for your eyes to have red light behind your TV to light up the area around your TV because, um, how your eyes focus, especially at night. So I, I've just obsessed with how can I watch TV at night or have the TV on, but do the least damage. Yes. Which is having my teeth like super dim, but then the bright, right, red light around the TV.
And I, so I have one of these behind the TV. So I, I love, I've, that's a sweet spot to put them. Um, That's funny. I have something kind of like that. Spotlight kind of thing from the floor that I put red light in and so it's nice behind the tv like you're speaking to But I like your kind of intentionality like it happens to hit the tv, but it wasn't fully conscious of like, okay Let me have it connected to the tv but I like how you're saying that and then I did have sauna space on the podcast and they spoke to using the they're like photon when they're watching tv with the thinking that That could kind of counteract some of the effects of or if they're exposed to blue light near infrared Or so theirs was near infrared, I believe for the low time because it's heat.
It has that heat element so that could get a deeper conversation. I have a big, I have a big panel above our couch too. And I put the near infrared on at night, but that's like, it'll be pretty high above. And you don't really, you can't see it, but I know we're getting near infrared on top of kind of the ambient red, but I'll have that on for maybe an hour in the evening.
Okay. That's probably the only red light my kids get, you know, once in a while, because it's, but if you're ever going to, there are people that need, you know, their kids are sick or whatnot. And it's like, if you're going to red light your kid, I'd be, I'm scared about most of the panels on the market, but Gember red, you at least know the intensities and.
Opt for low, low intensities, especially when using on kids because they're gonna be more sensitive to light. Yeah, and probably not need as much to, but you know, there are situations where people will, you know, use red light on kids with like stomach aches or this or whatever health issue. Um, you definitely have to be cautious.
I don't think any red light company is going to tell people like how to, but yeah, I'm most panel company. Most red light panel companies are saying like, oh, there's really no. Concern or like red light is very safe, uh, but I would take it a much further, like some of the things they're doing, I don't think are safe.
Like the intensities that they're recommending and using and really focusing. So I, I just stress that people know the intensities and. Opt for lower intensities and using it directly on the skin. You get more benefits. It goes deeper Just the optics of light work better when you use it directly on the skin Okay, and then the last question would be what would you say?
So far to date has made the biggest change to your sleep game how you're managing your sleep or said another way Maybe biggest aha moment in managing your sleep. I think turning off Electronics earlier, you know, the we've all gotten addicted to social media at some point or some sort of addiction, but turning those off and, uh, the meditating before bed seems to be dangerous.
The biggest bang for your buck because it's free. Um, I definitely, you know, I, I started meditating probably in high school and started to notice the effect on sleep through college too. I think that's how why it was such a good kicker. Um, and to manage that stress. There's a lot of stress when you're going into extremely large game, you know, Wisconsin.
Um, and I'm, and I'm, I was a kicker, but nowadays my, my meditation before bed is, yeah. Um, kind of breath holds. I do really slow deep and try and slow my breath as much as possible and almost do the, you know, you're almost depriving yourself of oxygen, but in a way through that you're, um, increasing oxygen.
Yeah, I like the book, Breath, if you've ever read it. Great. Yeah. So I, I've kind of shifted away from, I don't do any Wim Hof breathing or anything. I like the breath holding stuff and doing exercises where you try and hold your breath and do things to stress that, um, CO2 receptors. Sure. But I, I've just found that's.
the night immediate effects. So I'm gonna, yeah, with the, uh, aura ring, you know, maybe do some nights where I do that meditation and other nights I don't. So I think that's the easiest thing people can do and biggest effect. Sure. Oh, I love that. That's awesome. And I'm excited to follow as you experiment with all these things, because it seems to get into going deep.
So that's awesome. Now, lastly, for people listening, you know, you've clearly really set up your life in a way to support your health and your circadian rhythm and just having this be working for you. So it seems to really effortlessly link in with how you're managing your life, but also then impacting your family's life by setting up kind of the system of health and wellness in various forms.
So people are going to want to know how to follow you. How should they do that? Where could they get these options for? So for people listening again, this is like one of the only places that I've ever seen where you can get things custom made to fit your TV to block out all that blue light. Where should they go?
What should they do? So, um, yeah, I custom make all of the screens. So, You can go to shopwaken. com. That's um, and WAKEN stands for We All Know Nothing. So W A K N shopwaken. com. And then you just have to, um, you know, measure the outside of your TV, the dimensions, the height and the length and submit that to me.
And then I cut the screen based off that. Um, I make up the 85 inch TVs now. I just added 85 because Man, do you go into Walmart nowadays and like 80 inch TVs are 500. So everyone's getting these super large TVs and then they're like realizing, oh man, this is, this is maybe too much. Maybe we'll reduce the brightness of the screen.
An amber screen. But yeah, so screens are getting bigger. And so I'm definitely Probably the only company that will exist that makes these eventually, they'll probably be more software that comes out that can do this, but at the moment, there really isn't totally, you can follow me on my Instagram. That's we all we all know, nothing underscore Waken.
And you can reach out to me. I'm good about answering my DMs or email. Absolutely. And I highly recommend that people follow your Instagram because you just share in a way where we can all kind of be inspired by, Oh, okay, let's just out of the box, clever way to do some of these things. Also being in how to navigate winter and live sort of this rhythm friendly lifestyle.
people say, well, it's winter and I can't do any of this stuff. And you're showing that that is not have to be the case. Yeah, it's winter. And then also the issues with kids. Yeah. And having a family and stuff. Yeah. Get them early because that's the biggest issue people run into is, Oh, I can't put a screen filter on my 13 year olds addicted teenager or, you know, can't get them to wear blue blockers.
Get them, get them early. Yes. You know, get them used to the red light early. Right. Everyone's that blames like, Oh, my spouse will never go for the red lights. I'm like, I just, you just got to slowly work them. You know, listen, I know my I saw your husband wearing sunglasses. I swear to God, we were just on a walk last night.
And I shoot now I'm forgetting what I was going to call him. I had this really funny name because he was just he loved. It's a forever thing where I feel like I'm always having to like. pull off the EMF dripping blue light glow of whatever. Yeah. Oh, that was the other thing he was obsessed with for Halloween that I need to be Darth Vader and he can be, you know, the Jedi with the blue.
So he's like team blue. I'm team red. Yeah. But you know what's happened is over the years exactly what you said has happened is that somehow he's actually then come to the dark side and now is yeah likes to take advantage of the fact that now he sleeps so much better measurably he wins like every single you know like or a circle and all the things that you know all these people are just they'll start testing oh okay let me try to start caring about my sleep or whatever but he's He's doing all the things inadvertently, you know, so killing it.
Yeah. But if left to his own devices, right, it could go the other way. So it's great to, you're someone that's like leading the charge to get your whole family to do this, which is great. Yep. Amazing. Thank you. So great. Well, thank you for taking the time. I know you've got a busy schedule and kids and all the things.
So thanks so much. And just for the work that you're doing and education that you're sharing for people of what things can look like to leave this. Yes. Same to you. Appreciate your work. Oh, well, thank you so much. You've been listening to the Sleep as a skill podcast, the top podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level.
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