156: Dr. Sara Pugh, Biochemist & Neurotherapist: How to Create an Ideal Sleep Environment for Optimal Rest


Dr. Sara Pugh has a background in genetics, biochemistry and biophysics and has worked on protein folding, dopamine receptors, membrane proteins  genetic promoters in moss, statins & heart cells . She later trained in hypnosis ,  functional movement, functional neurology, ketogenic diets and quantum biology and has worked with clients since 2010. She has studied Christian mysticism, kabbalah and other religious practices by past civilizations along with medicinal plats. She is currently training with Dr Tom Cowan and spends time trying to decode Dr Kruse cryptic blogs to find his gems.

In this episode, we discuss:

😴 Diving into various disciplines

😴 The impact of sound

😴 UV light and sleep hormones

😴 Artificial vs. Natural Lighting

😴 Mitochondrial health and sleep

😴 Metabolism and obesity

😴 Cold thermogenesis and exercise

😴 Water and hydration

😴 Building biology and wellness

😴 EMF protection options

😴 Balancing sleep and perfectionism

😴 Leptin sensitivity and body clock

😴 EMF blocking clothing

😴 Sleep supplements and their effects

😴 The power of group learning

😴 Bridging worlds effortlessly

😴  What can we learn from Dr. Pugh’s sleep-night habits?  

😴  And more!


🧠 If you “Can’t Turn Your Brain Off” at night…


🧘 Need help meditating /HRV?! Check out my new favorite tool that you literally hold in your hand and feel it breathe with you, like a baby bird 🐤


Website: www.busysuperhuman.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/busy_superhuman/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/Spugh01

Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/busysuperhuman

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sara-pugh-/


The information contained on this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended as, and shall not be understood or construed as, medical or health advice. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.

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Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex-sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.

Each week I'll be interviewing world-class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian-aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health, and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.

Welcome to the Sleep As A Skill Podcast. Our guest today is Sara Pugh and she has a background in genetics, biochemistry, and biophysics, and has worked in protein folding dopamine receptors, membrane proteins, genetic promoters in moss, statins, and heart cells. She later trained in hypnosis, functional movement, functional neurology, ketogenic diets, and quantum biology, and has worked with clients since 2010.

She has studied Christian mysticism, Kabbalah, and other religious practices by past civilizations. She's currently training with Dr. Tom Cowan and spends time trying to decode Dr. Cruz's cryptic blogs to find his gems. All right. That was a mouthful. So what does that all mean? Well, you've probably heard us mention Dr.

Jack Cruz on this podcast at different times, and we'll certainly touch on some of his work in this conversation. If you're not familiar with him, he is certainly has lots. Of in-depth and dense information around ways that you can better understand how to leverage your circadian health. Some of the things that maybe don't get enough press as to why this phototherapy to say the least, is so, so crucial on our health and wellbeing, but certainly are sleep and so much more.

So I promise it will make all the sense in the world when we get into this conversation, but also just the practical takeaways of how to make sense of these conversations of quantum biology, circadian biology, and what it means on a day-to-day basis. How you can break down this information and actually extract max value in your day-to-day life.

So Sara does a great job of helping us do that. So I hope you really find value in today's conversation. I also highly recommend following Sara on social media. I love following along with the work that she's doing and she's putting out some great, great content in a digestible manner. So let's get into the podcast, but.

First, a few words from our sponsors. If you're listening to this podcast, you're likely looking to improve your sleep. And one of the first places that many people begin when they talk to me about sleep is they wanna know what's the supplement I can take? Well, I gotta say, I honestly don't take that many supplements nowadays for my sleep, and I'm very grateful for that.

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Today I'm very excited to introduce you to Moonbird, a pioneering biofeedback device that's revolutionizing the way we approach sleep. And they have just sponsored sleep as a skill. So in the realm of sleep science, stress management is always key. And Moonbird leverages the science of heart rate variability or HRV, which you know we're talking about all the time on this podcast.

And it leverages it in a way to combat sleep disturbances caused by stress. This innovative device isn't just for relaxation, it's a tool to activate your body's natural sleep mechanisms. So, according to a significant study in Psychophysiology  in 2015. Paced breathing, which is facilitated by something like Moonbird was found to significantly increase vagal activity.

This directly impacts your parasympathetic system leading to improved sleep quality. It's about making tangible physiological changes for better sleep. Now, Moonbird goes beyond being just a sleep aid. It's a scientifically grounded tool for managing stress and achieving deeper, more restorative sleep.

Now for listeners who wanna transform their sleep patterns, Moonbird combines cutting-edge technology with proven scientific strategies so you can visit Moonbird.life and use the code SLEEPASASKILL for a special discount. And just a quick aside, I am using my Moonbird every single day, and it's made a profound difference in how I'm managing my stress and improving my own ability to manage my health and well-being through heart rate variability technology.

And welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast. I know I'm always saying how excited I am for different guests that I'm about to speak with, but I am really excited about today's guests. You know, on my calendar consistently when a podcast will come up, there will be, you know, the things that run down of the things.

Oh, I wanna make sure we talk about this or that, or what have you. And like today, I looked at my calendar and I said, oh my gosh, how are we gonna even speak about all the things I wanna talk about? So that is a good problem to have. Thank you, Sara, for taking the time to be here and in the midst of your travel, and I know you got a lot that you're juggling.

So really, really appreciate you taking the time. Oh no, it's, um, great to be here with you, Mollie considering due to my travels. I canceled on you twice. It felt bad, so I've been really looking forward to this.  Good. Well no worries at all. I completely get it. I am often traveling as well. I know it can be so tricky to juggle all the things.

So the fact that you still made it workable in the face of that is like really amazing. So, I mean, there's so many directions we can go. So why don't we begin at the beginning, if you will, and how you found yourself in kind of the, the role that you've created for yourself, which is really just innovative.

I absolutely encourage people to follow your content right away. I usually, I wait to the end to say this, but I have been really enjoying the content that you've been putting out on different platforms and particularly on social media and what have you. So how did you find yourself in this arena of kind of quantum biology and how does this relate to the listener's journey in improving their sleep?

Well, it started out, I, um, studied biochemistry and genetics at university. And after that I did a PhD, which was in protein folding, but a lot of it was biophysics and fluorescence. And this was all done, um, using bacteria and not live human beings. Um, I got disillusioned with science over a project I did on statins.

Um, and then I left science and I became a Pilates teacher. 'cause I just wanted a complete change. 'cause obviously that job I did was very left brain, so I just dived right into the right brain world. And then that evolved into functional neurology because there were people, I just couldn't work out how to help.

So I got into the nervous system that then I got into hypnosis because people used to tell me really personal things, just randomly in the middle of having like in a backward role or their on, on a Cadillac or a former, something super personal. I didn't know what to do. So I got into hypnosis, but then I did stage hypnosis and some close-up magic as well.

Mm-Hmm. Because, because like everything, once I go into a rabbit hole, I have to do everything. Yes. And um, then I got into, I, I've always been interested in supplements, being a biochemist. Um, I've kind of put that behind me a bit now because it's like sort of things are moving away from using supplements all the time.

But it's something I was interested in. Then I got into ketogenic diets and fasting and then I. Discovered quantum biology and light and magnetism and water. But I was able to tie it all together 'cause I already had sort of the background, I mean the biophysics side I had, and then movement that sort of ties into fascia and collagen and, um, being able to, uh, remove, um, traumas from the body physically, um, by using movement.

Uh, and then it just kind of evolved to where I'm now and like every day is a school day. I'm always learning something new or trying something new. Or,  um, trying to solve a problem. I, I don't, I, my own problems sort of, I solved them a long time ago, but then, you know, it's always finding new ways to help people of all different ages in, in different countries as well.

Because I think where you live also plays quite a big role in how well you can sleep or, um, how much light you have. Because people laugh at the UK thinking we have terrible weather. We do have a sun sometimes, but at least it's quieter. 'cause I'm here in Atlanta at the moment and I didn't really understand how much, how impactful noise and sound was on, on stress.

Again, the way that light travels through the body, it would be through photons and it excites electrons. But then the phonons from the sound is also an extremely important way in which, um, our cells and bodies communicate. And we don't have ear lids or ear flaps so we can close our eyes or. Go into a dark room, but we can't shut off the sound.

I suppose we have earplugs, but I, I think again, um, what we can talk about with sleep, I think light is, um, something that maybe we, we would go down. 'cause again, I don't think anything's more important than anything else, but I definitely think light and water are sort of high up there. And people might be thinking, how on earth does water relate to sleep?

Absolutely. So first off, I love that journey and I completely relate to the rabbit hole kind of approach and that curiosity and every day being a school day. I think that's fantastic. Certainly aligns from kind of how things got developed here with sleep as a skill and a lot of the people that come our way and beginning to have that intense fascination and curiosity around certainly as it relates to sleep, but then extending to these rhythms and how our environment is kind of setting the stage for our sleep results.

So going more into this kind of both, I love how you kind of honed in. I know there's a lot of directions we could go, but the light and water. Yes. Walk us through these two distinctions and how they can play such a big role in sleep that in a way that people might not at first glance, realize. Okay. I think with light is, we can break it down.

To be really simple, the very basic body clock or signals that we have are just la light and dark, so day and night. And then embedded within that, um, within our cells, they perform about a hundred thousand reactions every second. So I always say to people, it is sort of like an airport. Everything's got to be coordinated and happen at the right time, otherwise things don't work.

So we have, uh, what we would call a circadian rhythm, and then we have a master clock, which is behind our eyes, and it runs slightly faster than all the other clocks in our body. So this master clock behind the eyes will receive light and it sets, oh, I would say that the body clocks. And when I talk about body clocks, I mean the organ clock.

So we need to,  you know, our gut needs to know when. It should be asleep. And when we need to go to the bathroom and there's very specific times, then we have a liver clock and the heart clock. But then deeper than that, each cell has a clock. So the cell cycle. So the cell needs to know whether it's meant to be dividing or um, destroying itself or stuff like that.

So the cell cycle is hugely important for sort of the life and death cycle of a cell, which is almost like a light and dark.  Basically I, when I work with people, I think having a good foundation in circadian biology or having a good body clock makes a really good foundation to start with because none of the things you do except buying blue blocking glasses, costs anything.

And I think sometimes people can feel overwhelmed or daunted by embarking on a journey 'cause they don't know, is this gonna cost me 10 grand, a hundred grand? And a, a lot of stuff we'll talk about is available for free in nature. 'cause again, grounding is an important aspect of, um, gathering electrons.

And the more electrons we've got, the more complex. We are and light excites electrons. And also when it comes to electrons, we can just sort of describe them as money or energy in the body. And we actually need to have energy in order to be able to calm down, in order to go to sleep. So there's lots of sort of paradoxes in quantum biology.

So I think the fundamentals of starting with a good circadian rhythm, we were gonna talk about sleep and it actually starts at the beginning of the day because seeing the sunrise is almost like doing a reset, sort of switching your iPad or iPhone, um, on and off again when things are not working properly.

And this particular time of day, uh, there's a particular blend of blue and red light at, uh, sunrise. And this switches on important hormone cascades, uh, for the day. And also just tells your brain the day's starting. And then later on we've got the UVA rise and the UVA light switches off certain hormones we don't want running all day.

Um, but also it activates our biological pharmacy and relating to sleep. This would be things like making serotonin, which is gonna get turned into melatonin later. Um, making endocannabinoids. 'cause we have our own supply of endocannabinoids, and I know a lot of people use CBD and other things for sleeping, whereas we can make our own, uh, cannabis ourselves.

And that's, uh, a UV light, um, driven. So just for people who, who are brand new to this, the UVA rise happens about an hour after, uh, sunrise. So you want to be able to get out in both of those times. And, and the more your more problems you have, the longer you need to be outside and the more of yourself you can expose to the sun, the better.

So it's not just eyes, you want as much skin in the game. 'cause there are photoreceptors on the skin as well. And also, um, when, when you go out in the UVA light in the daytime, your body's going to produce things like endorphins and enkephalins, which are painkillers and feel-good, um, hormones. But I think also it makes thyroid.

Um, and that's something again, it's our gas pedal. And for some people their thyroid is over active so they can't sleep. But for the majority there's a sort of energy problem there. So that would. Sort of encompass, how does all of this start? Just very briefly, which light is important and, and how would I do it?

So when, when you see the sun with your eyes, you don't need to look right at it, but you shouldn't have windows in the way or, um, contact lenses, um, on, or glasses so that the light C can get in. And that's sometimes something that confuses people. Uh, and again, like I said, our skin has photoreceptors on it as well.

So, so that would be sort of the, the beginning of the day. Then the, the important don'ts here would be don't wake up in the morning and look at your phone straight away, because the light that comes outta the phone, um, uh, would tells your brain it's 12 noon in the middle of June. So, so first of all, it can be hugely stressful because your body's gonna think, oh my goodness, like it's 12 o'clock already.

But also it's just providing completely the wrong signal early in the morning. And that means it's, that bad signal is going to propagate through your cells and confuse them as well. So that's like the biggest, no, I I, if you can, when you wake up, block any artificial light and, and see if you can see the sun.

That's the first light that your eyes see. So no fluorescent lights, no phones. Um, and that's a really good way to get started and I know how tempting it is to look at the phone, but that's the biggest, no-no is, it's worse than, than switching bright lights on.  Absolutely. And I love that you're kinda walking through those, the practical elements of that.

'cause that's what so many people are struggling with and that's the routine for so many people. And how about for, you know, those specific concerns that people will have and often it can kinda shake out differently from that circadian approach versus the quantum approach of, oh, well if you're we're looking to have bright days, dark nights, the circadian researchers might say one thing of, well just turn on all your lights in your space and make it super, super bright.

Whereas the quantum approach might then have a bit more nuance to the suggestions there. So I'm wondering if you can share too, if you've seen for people some kind of solutions there. And of course the ideal being, being outside like all day and into the night. But if there's that kind of practical component, what you see for people of how to kind of get those signals.

Even if they're finding themselves in an office environment or at home indoor environments. Okay, so first of all, um, with, with the people saying just turn on bright lights. Yeah. You can't create a sun inside. So no matter what, that light is gonna have sort of a, it could have a high flicker rate, which can cause inflammation or, or chaos in the body.

And, and chaos is just another word biophysicists would use for, for inflammation. So, so first of all, the bright lights, um, are not, is not a real sun and that's going to cause confusion Also, um, blue lights or very bright artificial lights going to over stimulate cortisol production, but via a peptide called POMC.

So when you get, get natural sunlight, POMC creates or makes. Certain, uh, peptides in your body, but when you are adjusting artificial or blue light, it's, it's going to favor making ACTH and clip, and ACTH is going to push cortisol up, uh, artificially. And then, um, clip is, is sort of like an insulin secretagogue, so this is gonna push blood sugar up as well.

And again, cortisol itself pushes up blood sugar. So you've already interrupted your biology. Not, not just your circadian rhythm, but also something else that's really important, which is blood sugar. Um, by being in the wrong kind of light too early, and again, it would be too much of a shock for your body to wake up and just turn on all the lights because the sun comes up gradually.

You've got daybreak before, um, the sun comes up. So you gradually get exposed to different wavelengths of light. And like I said, in the, at sunrise, there's a particularly special blend of, uh, red and blue light, a purple light that, that you, there is no such bulb that, that, that can do that. Right. Um, and then for people who say work in, work in an office or have to drive to work, if you open the window in your car or windows at home, that's a way to.

Be able to receive this information because the eye only needs five photons that of light. So that's almost like just for simplicity, a speck of dust.  And it's almost, it's like we, I physically wouldn't notice if a speck of dust fell on me. I wouldn't notice. Whereas a speck of dust as in five photons, your eyes that sensitive, it's gonna pick up those five photons and then it amplifies everything through the body.

So that's just something called nonlinear optics, that a very small signal can grow into an enormous signal and it can communicate with your mitochondria, which are really important for producing energy. And they're sort of, they just, in simplistic terms, they're the things which make water for us. They make ATP, they also make light and they're completely dependent on signals from the sun.

'cause it's like our biological batteries and they need to know what time of day it is. So they know whether we need to be, um, burning fat or um.  Are we gonna be running around? Are we sleeping and should we be repairing? Um, so, so again, for, for people who are worried, well, I can't physically get myself out in the sun, just opening the windows in the car or the sunroof or, or something to let the light in, that's better than nothing at all.

Right. Absolutely. So some of that practical application to crack the windows or if you're in an office, kind of prioritizing those sun breaks, getting ourselves outside as much as we possibly can to continue to sample that environment. And to your point, from that kind of quantum perspective, it can do more than we might realize and to help kind of in train what time of day is this, and then inform our clocks in every cell and organ in our body to know what to be doing and when.

So good. And I'm curious too, 'cause you did a great job too, of pointing to that very big topic of mitochondrial health and all that does to support our sleep results. And curious if you can touch on the role that that might have in even northern latitude locations from kinda a cold perspective utilizing cold to help facilitate sleep as well.

Okay, so, so first of all, just with the mitochondria, they also make hormones so they, they can make pregnenolone. And again, especially for women around the perimenopause, uh, they'll all know that if you get low on progesterone, that's a recipe for, uh, waking up, uh, in the middle of the night. And also estrogen, um, is important for sleep as well.

And men, um, make progesterone too, even though people think it's a female hormone, it's actually, um, an any gender hormone. And, and men need progesterone for calming down as well. But also the mitochondria make melatonin themselves 'cause people think it's just a pineal gland.  In fact, the mitochondria will make their own melatonin.

And again, for, for people, that's our sleep hormone. And we won't go into huge detail with it. But it doesn't only put you to sleep, it also repairs the mitochondria and also, um. Melatonin is like the pivot on a apoptosis and autophagy. So that means that the, the body can take out the trash and it can also kill unwanted cells.

And that's fundamentally of, you know, what, one of the main reasons why we need to actually go to sleep and stay asleep and produce the right amount of hormones. 'cause just knocking yourself out with a variety of interesting compounds, you might be comatose, but it doesn't mean you've got, um, the right amount of melatonin there.

Performing these particular activities so people can get tricked into thinking they sleep well. And also you can get people that have got really low cortisol and low melatonin. So, so, um, they think they go to sleep or they slept well, but it's just because there wasn't enough cortisol to wake them up.

So, so that's one reason why the mitochondria are really important in, in sleep. So, uh, just to digress, uh, with cold thermogenesis, that's a really enormous topic. It's, but it's actually one favorite, I feel like I've heard you speak to this too, on the leveraging of that as far as geographical kind of components of how we can make use.

'cause it can be a tricky topic for people when they hear and start to understand that our health, geography, where we are, can result in kinda our health results and our sleep results. But then how, when we are in some northern latitude locations to take advantage of that cold to a, a certain extent, I know it's a big topic.

Oh no, it's great. Yeah, I think, well, first of all with cold thermogenesis, um, humans are not meant to be just warm adapted. So number one, we're not meant to just be the same temperature all the time. Yeah, we should be able to get very hot and very cold and not mind. And children are, are good at this. And babies 'cause babies like don't care whether they're naked or not, they actually prefer it 'cause they're very good at that.

They arrive in ketosis and, um, sort of being cold adapted. Um, but just to run people quickly through what, um, cold thermogenesis can do, it can reduce inflammation. So if people, sometimes pain stops, people sleeping properly, it can, um, help with insulin resistance and leptin resistance. Um, again, insulin again is.

Sort of a growth, um, factor and it, and it regulates blood sugar, but a, an wild blood sugar up and down through the day is another reason some people don't sleep properly or they wake up in the night with cravings or once a week before bed. And then leptin is another thing you could do a whole podcast on.

Yes. Basically. Speed. Um, it, it tells our brain how much energy or electrons we've got on board. So it just is going to decide how quickly the metabolism is going to go the next day and how much we're going to eat. And the default setting is you don't have enough energy. So a lot of times with obesity, people have got loads of energy on board, but their body or can't see it 'cause they're leptin resistant, so therefore they can't access their own fuel.

So they constantly are looking for electrons from food from the outside. But that's kind of another topic. Yeah. Also cold thermogenesis or a cold face plunge can produce oxytocin, dopamine nor adrenaline. And just starting off like super basic, uh, when it comes to doing a cold plunge, um. If people have never done it before, everybody can do a face plunge and everybody can, um, dry themselves naked, um, in the air.

And that's safe for everybody because when it comes to the diabetes or the the metabolism side, our brown fat's in our chest and our upper back. So you need to get that area cold. That's why the standing naked and letting the air dry, you will stimulate your brown adipose tissue. But then just doing a cold face plunge is gonna be enough to release those really important hormones.

So the dopamine is obviously vital for mood, um, motivation, feeling good. And again, if we have dopamine depletion, we're just open, wide, open to addiction. Um. And then when it comes to oxytocin, this is a really interesting one 'cause it's can go to, there's another practical tip. Mm. So you can't do a cold face plunge before bed because  I mentioned earlier that in the morning you make some serotonin from the UVA light and then later your body turns that into melatonin.

And it's  ideally needs four hours of darkness to do that. But if you've got oxytocin present, it's like an accelerator or a catalyst so you can make melatonin quicker. So a cold face plunge could increase oxytocin, so could cuddling, but also, um, sex before bed is going to also speed up that conversion.

So oxytocin is a sort of a little way to sort of hurry up the melatonin making process. 'cause like you said, some people may not have the luxury of having the, the chance to have four hours of peace and quiet before bed. Especially if they've got families or children or Sure. Or working late.  Absolutely.

And then, and then on, on the other aspect of, um, cold thermogenesis, um, for, uh, again, when you make yourself really cold, just in simplistic terms, you're going to have to put energy in to warm yourself back up again. So this is going to use up energy, so it's another way to. Spend energy that's not exercising 'cause that's not, um, open to everybody.

If they've got lots of pain or injuries or sort of a busy family life, they sometimes don't have time to exercise. Whereas you can expend extra energy by making yourself cold because what it'll do is it'll, at the level of the mitochondria, um, cold, we can pretend, we can pretend it contracts. So it's going to bring the proteins in the electron transport chain closer.

And anything in quantum biology, the closer something is, the better it's gonna work. So the electrons are gonna zip down the electron transport chain better and you're going to be able to make more water. And then more ATP and um, burning energy like this. And we are gonna make lots of heat as well. We call it uncoupling is less inflammatory than thrashing about and doing a massive sort of one hour workout.

'cause yes, you're gonna produce ATP and water that way, but you're gonna produce more free radicals. So I'm not for one minute saying there's anything wrong with exercise. It's really vital and really important that exercise in itself is going to produce inflammation. But then that's how you improve because that's the trigger for your muscles sort of grow and repair.

But I'm just saying that you can use cold thermogenesis and I would say sort of over 30 minutes that around 50 Fahrenheit in the sort of 15 degrees C. To make a sort of workout in the cold. If you aren't able to go to a gym you don't like, you, you can't or you are injured. It's a way for people, especially if people have obesity, uh, and it wouldn't be appropriate for them to jump up and down on their joints yet.

It's a, it's a tool for that. Although this, we're not sort of talking about, uh, weight loss today. The other thing that can be a bit counterintuitive with cold thermogenesis is even though you get very cold, and we know that in order to sleep well, the bedroom needs to be cool. 'cause our, it's, it's better for melatonin to be produced.

You actually warm up doing cold ther, um, doing a cold plunge later. Yeah. And it can be. Stimulating for people. So that would be one thing. Don't do cold plunges, um, close to bedtime. 'cause you, you, you, you can get too warm and then it's going to disrupt the natural drop in temperature that you need, uh, to go to sleep.

Uh, and like I said, you could, you could do it, um, around about six o'clock where lots of people would exercise. You can do it in the middle of the day if you feel like you need a more adrenaline boost and you can do it in the morning. Um, or because the oxytocin that gets produced from, from a cold face plunge has got similarities to BDNF, which is brain-derived nootropic factor.

So this is really important for the synapses and, and, and nerves in our brain. And, and oxytocin is tied into that pathway as well. And it's just a bonding hormone. So I just find that I do a lot of cold plunges. It just makes me feel more at one with humankind and, and.  And, and I'm lucky that I normally live in the uk so we've got plenty of cold there.

And we're an island, so we've got the sea and we've got lakes. So, so I can do cold plunges outside and get the double benefit of the sunlight and also the grounding. So the grounding would, would bring in more electrons. And again, the more electrons we've got before bed, the better we're going to sleep.

'cause like I said, we need energy to actually be able to go to sleep. And this is sort of in a simplistic way, describing redox potential. So the more negatively charged we are, biochemically the better. And things like grounding, and we won't go into other things for raising redox that can be really helpful for sort of this side.

And I just say it's like being a battery, that, that the more electrons we've got, the better our battery and the more electrons we've got, the better results we're gonna get from sunlight. Because like I said at the beginning, sunlight is brilliant, but it, it's the photoelectric effect described by Einstein says it has to, you have it, it can out photons.

As in light can only excite electrons. So the more electrons we've got, the, the more we're gonna benefit from the sun, the more you're going to get all of those benefits I just described earlier from the sunrise and the hormones, and then the UVA rise and opening our biological pharmacy. Absolutely. Ugh.

Such big topics and I only wish we had hours to go in much more deeply. So I know we touched on this big topic of water and so I know this is not gonna do it any due diligence, but as kind of laser of a connection to, for people to even just start to be thinking about. How in the world does water relate to my results with my sleep?

If you can kind of just open the Pandora's box for us real quick.  Okay. So if we think about it where ninety-nine molecules of water and one of human beings. So therefore it's really important and, um, there are many, many books about, uh, water and hydration, but, uh, it's fundamentally that we need this water to hydrate our proteins and.

O other things like melanin to act as semiconductors in the body. So again, we are an electrical being and the better we can conduct, um, the better we are. And, and with a semiconductor, without getting too complicated, it's means it can, um, send information in 360 degrees, whereas a wire, um, can only do it in one direction.

So this idea of a semiconductor is how we can do sort of rapid communication through the body. And every time a nerve fires, it produces, uh, water. And this particular water in the body is called exclusion zone water. So it charged, separates into positive and negative, and it's sort of a gel like structure, and we need this proper hydration.

For not only our semiconductors as in our battery, but also for things to function properly like our molecular machines. And Dr. Gerald Pollock has written a book on, on this and structured water, or easy water or coherent water, and this, um, ties me into bedtime activities again. That, hmm. Number one, um, the water that your mitochondria make, um, a deuterium depleted water.

So deuterium is sort of a heavy isotope of hydrogen, which is sort of like a heavy metal. And, and we want as little deuterium as possible. Again, another topic, but, uh, the mitochondria make this deuterium depleted water and then they can structure it 'cause they can make heat. And so we will just pretend we're hydrated.

If you sleep with, with lots of tech or go and play with your phone, uh, and Wi-Fi and Bluetooth before bed. The biggest dealer of, of hydration or water is tech. It can. Sort of take away about, um, sort of 15% of it. So just to recap of like really basic, um, the more water your mitochondria can make, the healthier you are going to be and the more energy you're going to have.

And again, like I can't emphasize enough, you need energy to be able to go to sleep. Yeah. And then the biggest stealer of this internal water is, um, is tech and non-native, EMF. So back, back to the bedroom, it should be cool and dark, which is already established, but also tech free. Um, so no charging the phone by your, your bed.

No TVs. Um.  Just basically take either unplug everything or, or just don't have it there in the first place. Because again, you don't want to, um, have your water stolen because again, it, it's going to disrupt your sleep in that way. But also from a melatonin perspective, even though we can't see EMFs, they are just another form of light.

So,  for example, the book, the Invisible Rainbow just talks about this in great detail with a huge amount of scientific backup. Um, but the non-native EMFs. Can make your body perceive light and then light is going to cause melatonin to get broken down. So definitely tech and bedrooms don't get on. Also, non-native EMFs tend to make restless legs worse.

And I have people all the time asking me how much magnesium do I need to take? How much potassium? And they probably know more than me about minerals. But the fact is they've got too much tech in the bedroom. Yeah. And that's why they've got the restless legs. There are other reasons, of course. That's just one of them that, um, people get very fixated on, well, what supplement can I take?

And it's like, totally, you know, get the technology outta the bedroom. Um. As well. And like I said, it also steals your water and the mitochondria, what their main function is to make water for us. So it's just, I always think about things as, um, coming into the body and leaving or having something or having it taken away so we can have more water if our mitochondria function.

Uh, well, and then it gets taken away If we overuse tech  again during the day in the bedroom and before bed. Absolutely no, I, you know, one of the emerging industries that I think will make a big, huge splash in the future from a wellness perspective will be the emergence of these building biology optionalities for people to really understand, just even in more depth in the practical application of how much our environment is gonna give us our results with our health and our sleep.

So I so appreciate you speaking to that. And then even from just how do we have this work on the go, you know, while you're traveling, you spoke to just like the unplugging of some of these things around us in our sleep environment and the environment that we're spending time in. So all of these things are so important and often things that we can remedy, hopefully easily or with some thought.

Okay, so I know there's so many things and we do always ask every person that we bring on for questions about how they're managing their own sleep to see what we can learn from the individual about things that kind of, they're bringing in and I'm. Definitely. So curious to hear how some of your answers for some of these.

So the first question that we ask everyone is, what does your nightly sleep routine look like right now? And you might have already kind of touched on some of those things with some of the call-outs that you've made of things that you're really mindful of in your environment. But kind of walk us through, are there things that we should really be aware of that you're bringing into your nighttime routine?

Okay, so it is slightly different when I'm in the UK versus staying with somebody else. So when, when I'm in my own home, I, I can switch off my electricity at the fuse box. So I switch everything off other than my computer and my fridge. And that's actually, it is like that all day. I never turn lights on, but that's because I've got used to working like that and I live by myself.

So yeah, there's no, this is where it's really important when you've got obstructive family members or teenagers. That can sometimes not be possible. But then I always try and cater for people who've got. Funds and then people who are trying to save money. So again, I'm very much a don't buy it if you don't need it.

Yes. Have the most simple car possible. I've gotten, I've kept my, my ten-year-old car that has just a radio in it, because I don't have complicated extra tech. And my house is, yeah, everything's o everything's unplugged or been thrown out if I don't use it. And then I'm very much, I'm happy going around like that.

And then, yes, I do sometimes use my phone and my computer after Sunset because I have to for work. So I put, um, Iris or Flux on my laptop to block the light. And then with the phone, I can't block the flicker, so I try to do things on the computer if I have to. Not on the phone, like buy things or  use social media.

Um. So, so that's how I would deal with the tech, because sometimes you have to work or, or do something. So that would basically be, and I, and I don't, and I tend not to eat after sunset unless, um,  it's something sociable because again, eating too close to bed's gonna disturb leptin, but it is also just gonna wake the mitochondria back up and the.

Food is a zeitgeiber as well, a timekeeper. So, so that's what I, that's ideally what I would do. So, so I, I'm, I can easily get four hours of darkness and I use things like candles and I use an ultraviolet, a light if I need to because red light, not red light panels, well, red light panels can really disturb people's sleep.

So people doing red light, uh, before bed, the best way to wake yourself back up there are red light bulbs and orange light bulbs can be helpful. If I must turn stuff on, I have lamps because the blue light from above is the pro, the big problem. I've got blue blockers and the light doesn't c tend to trigger the eye from round the corner.

So I would, um, I sometimes wear a sort of hoodie or a cap to block the blue light, although, like I said, I don't have lights on in my own house. Sure. Lamps. Great, because they're more at your level. So again, for people who need, need to have lighting lamps and candles and UVA lights and red bulbs, um, are great.

That's how, that's what I do in my house. If I have to stay with somebody else, then it's kind of different because you, you have to adjust to their schedule. So. My, where I live is really quiet, so I don't have a noise problem. Whereas here, um, earplugs, um, going in the dark with, with a weighted blanket just to calm down are really helpful.

And then I have to be more careful with, with light here because, uh, again, people from, from different cultures, some people like to buy a lot of things to do circadian biology with or mitigate it. So, um, where, where I'm at the moment there's a cosmic tower, so that's, um, it's sort of the similar kind of science to the Leela Q cube is like a, a genuine harmonizer, so it's very expensive, but um, that's something people could buy.

It doesn't mean you are completely protected from EMFs 'cause you control how much phone use you use. Yeah. And then certain people invest in having sort of non-native EMF paint in their house. Um, and they can have special lighting installed. I know incandescent light bulbs are not legal in some states in the US now, where we can, you can buy them from the UK if you want, uh, and stuff like that.

Thank you.  Yes. And then, um, again here, because, um, sometimes  children d don't want to go to bed. Yeah. Just have to find your own way. So, so not, I I have a slightly different, um, routine here because I can't just go out and ground whenever I want because, um, this, the security is different here. And there's, there, there are doors where every door you shut and open, it goes bing bong and it sends signals around the house.

So normally in at home when I was, we'd be doing, going to bed routine, I'd go and do some grounding outside and, you know, I can look at the moon if I want to. Whereas here I have to, um, do my grounding earlier and then not ruin everything by fiddling around on, on the tech. So I have to be more. With the tech here, because at, at my home in the uk, if I've abused tech a bit in the evening, I can fix it to some extent by going grounding, whereas I can't hear after a certain amount of time.

The other thing I find really helpful is having a, um, a magnesium sulfate bath. You know, Epsom salt. Mm-hmm.  But then I've found that making it super saturated, almost like the um, isolation tank is actually even more sedating. 'cause sometimes it says just use a scoop. But sometimes on a bad day, I've used like three bags and then had Oh, me too.

Yeah.  I love that. So I think the emphasis is with people, you know, you don't, it doesn't have to be perfect all the time. 'cause some people can't sleep because they get so obsessed with everything that, that Totally, they become a hermit. Uh, and then they, they then, then their husband wants to file for a divorce because the wifi, you know, gets thrown out and that the teenagers are going crazy.

So it's one of these things, if you do the best that you can and, and even if you cut down on the light and the MS by half, yeah, your body clock and your mitochondria are gonna be happy. And also the other people in your family might benefit. Uh, and then notice the difference. So it's one of these things that you, you have to, um, adapt it on your environment.

The, the other problem some people have is they live in apartments or, um, near to other people and you can't control their. Wi-Fi use and, and obviously the Christmas light season's out now. Yeah. And some people I know are really upset because that spoiled their circadian thing. So blackout curtains are something that are important that that's can be really helpful as well for people to block out other people's light.

So, so that would be sort of my routine is it is a bit, yeah. Disjointed. Because when I'm in two, whe when you, when you totally somewhere else. And then again, I have a whole different routine again if I have to stay in a hotel. Right. Or at my mom and dad's, because like everybody has different, you have, I, I've realized there's no such thing as a perfect place to go because even certain people say, oh, just move to the equator.

Well, I'm sure my dad would have a lot to say about that with the crime rates there. Yeah. Complete sort of, um, stranger to the culture. And then I've traveled around and doing, doing circadian things in different countries and I'm yet to find anything That's perfect. So I think it's one of these things that people mustn't get obsessed with it being perfect because that can stop 'em sleeping and they just get really stressed about it as well.

Absolutely. Yeah. My, um, my husband and I, we've been together 13 years and for three years of that we were kind of digital nomads in Southeast, Asia and kind of near the equator in different locations and was. Doing lots of different sleep experiments and very light centric at the time, and mindful of EMFs and doing all the different things.

And yet to your point, it would consist there was never the place where this is it. Yes, there would always be something and the more you learn. And the more rabbit holes you go down, it's like, oh, okay, well this part's great, but then you got the, whatever, the lack of grounding or the EMF or you got the light problems or whatever.

And so there's always something, and I think it's really important distinction that you point to because we do see clear evidence that there does appear to be certain through lines of personality traits when we look at things like insomnia, difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep, early morning awakenings, and kind of perfectionistic tendencies.

So while it can be alluring and exciting and life changing to learn all of these things and to start to implement them, and I mean, I've literally chosen where I live based on some of these elements and we'll continue to then choose some new places that I'm gonna be living coming up. And you know, it's, there's so much that we can learn, but without.

Losing our minds at the same time and trying to have perfection. So I think that's so great that you pointed to that too. So it's a balancing act. And yet I'm curious too. So because definitely I'm getting part of the through line that you're sharing is you're really thoughtful about your environment that you're in and the environment might change, but you're thinking critically about what can you do to set yourself up for success as much as you possibly can.

And then accepting moments where, okay, well this environment might be lacking in X, Y, or Z. How can I be okay with that or make the best of it in those situations? And of course, your home environment aiming to, you know, do your as much as you possibly can. So curious then what we might see in your morning, quote unquote sleep routine with the expectation or the thinking that our mornings can set us up for success with our sleep.

Yeah, definitely. Just, just before we move into that, yes. I just wanted to say for the listeners that, that, because I've practiced quantum biology in lots of different countries. Yeah. From New Zealand to Vietnam, which has got loads of UV lights and then I was there too. Yeah, yeah. From Switzerland to the uk that that it, it's more about other helping other people because again, it's not just about my routine.

It is like, what, what can I provide to people based on having tried to sleep where they live? Yes. So, yeah, with my, um, with my morning routine, uh, I think I'm really careful with that because I, I definitely don't see any light other than the sun.  Before I get up, so I wouldn't turn lights on and um, I wouldn't look at my phone and again, um, because where I'm staying, everybody else gets up at sunrise, it's okay for me to just, so I go outside and ground first because like I was saying before, you, you get more information from the sun when you are grounded.

So that's really important. Um, and then what I'll do is, um. If I, I do occasionally have a little bit of caffeine in the morning, as in I'll sort of make a quarter ca caffeinated and three quarters decaf, but I'd always eat first. So I always make sure that I have food within probably forty-five minutes of sunrise.

'cause again, it's part of, um, leptin, um, sensitivity, but it's also part of setting my body clock as foods, as I have as well. And again, if I can go outside temperature's a time-setter as well. So even if it's really cold, that doesn't matter. My biology likes that because it's information, so it's telling me what the season is.

So I'm using a combination of the correct light food and temperature to, to set my body clock as well. So that's why if you can, going outside or opening a window so your brain knows the temperature and it's more likely to know the season. Uh, and then, um, that then I, I often, I.  Uh, if I'm at home in the uk, I'll go and swim in a lake and try and time it so that the sunrise happens when I'm in it.

So, so I can get the grounding, the sun and the cold thermogenesis all in one go h However, this sort of goes into the territory of hormones and cortisol and over-stressing yourself. So that's what I would do for my quantum. When I'm in the UK here, what what I do is I do red light, uh, first, and, and then I go in the cold plunge.

So, so that I experimented with that before breakfast and then after. And it works much better after because I think looping back to too much stimulation in the morning from cold plunges or bright red lights or coffee or anything, we have our own natural cortisol spike. So I try not to do anything that's going to push that too high 'cause it's going to have some effect later.

And also it's putting strain on my adrenal glands. So, so that's what my morning routine would do. I'll sometimes. Go for a walk if I'm in the UK as well. 'cause I don't do the cold plunge every day. 'cause again, like exercise, not a good idea. So, so if I'm in the uk I'll, I'll, I'll go out with blue blockers on and stuff and walk at sort of daybreak.

So I'm in, there's forest area near me. So I, I'm in nature. I can ground, I can connect with the human resonance. So it's a slightly different, um, morning routine there. Whereas, um, no matter what I, I'll always, um, see the sunrise. I'll always go outside in the morning and I'll always eat something even if I don't feel like it.

And then I'll always have, um, sort of my very weak coffee after I've had food. So the people that love coffee, it doesn't, yeah. You know, that's just how it is. I'm not against it in any way. I just think eat something first and don't go and have a black coffee and then do. A CrossFit workout, uh, because it's just going to  your hormones and your cortisol will just have a like a fit.

Absolutely. Right? And do we need more dehydration and more issues in alignment with all these kind of things that we're up against so wise? And then the third question would be, what might we see on your nightstand or potentially proverbial nightstand if you're traveling things in your environment that might be noteworthy or maybe the absence of things in your environment that might be noteworthy for your sleep.

Oh yeah. I try not to have anything Bluetooth, although there is one thing that I have found is useful is that is an Apollo Nero and I'll, and I'll, um, and, and like there was one night I thought, I'm never gonna get to sleep and I don't use it very often. And I used the go to sleep mode and I did go to sleep.

So obviously whatever that did it, it trumped the, um, the Bluetooth problem. But you, I can run it in airplane mode. Um, so that's just one thing. O on the whole, I don't, I don't own really any, any, uh, wireless tech. I, I, I do, I did have an aura ring, but it's, um, I don't have anything against them. I just got to a place where it was just the same all the time.

I understand. Yeah. And, and then with my nightstand, I actually, um, have a candle or a lighter because sometimes if I am Desh, but I'll light a cigarette lighter or I'll light a candle for light. Yeah. Um, and then, like I said, I, I like UVA lights. 'cause again, that's my second go-to if I have to turn a light on and it's, it's just here, um, just here, the one of these, and they're like very Oh, nice.

Yeah. Fantastic. And then when it comes to, to, how do I know what time it is be, because I'm quite particular about my circadian rhythm, I tend to sync in quite well with, with, with the sun, so I don't need talk, but for other people who do, you can, there's a wide variety of sort of circadian friendly alarm clocks.

And then I suppose for, for traveling, I, I always take EMF blocking clothing 'cause even if it only blocks 30%, so I've got a hoodie that I live in and then I've got an EMF blocking blanket that's been all over the world. And, um, it wa it is one of the best $200 spends. My mum and dad just think it's stupid that I've got this cloth that is like, you know, a child that has their favorite Teddy or like an EMF blanket and is like 200 pounds.

But I, I, you know, 'cause I can wrap that around my head or I can sleep under it so that those.  And then an eye mask. I always, um, use one of those just to, 'cause like I said, the eyes are very sensitive. It only takes five photons. So that's why getting electronics outta the bedroom. 'cause even if something's got a little light on it, you know, like a charging light or people sometimes use air filters.

Um, that can keep people awake. And, and also I always have the windows open in my house. Even I've got the window open here, even though it's minus two degrees C. I dunno what that is in Fahrenheit, but it's kind of, hmm. Cold. 'cause I, the flow of air, I seem to sure like that. And in the, in the UK I sometimes run an air filter in because it sucks the air in.

And also just the particles is just an extra thing to annoy me. So, so that's, yeah, it's kind of quite simple. Well, when it comes to my bed at home in the uk, I do have a Magnetico,  which I do really like. Um, yeah. And that, that was a good investment. Um, so that would be my sort of what, what's in my bedroom like as little as possible.

Totally. I love that, that minimalistic approach. And it's thoughtful. I wouldn't say it is tidy. It's full of all kinds of things like stuff, but it's nothing electronic. Like there's books and all of my spirituality trinkets and stuff like that. But in terms of electronic things, like, no, I don't have, have those in, in, in my bedroom.

Love it. Okay. And I love the, call it the Magnetico great addition as well. And then the last question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep game? Or set another way, maybe biggest aha moment in managing your own sleep? Definitely always, never miss a sunrise and always get as much UVA light as possible.

So I've changed my work schedule and luckily I'm self-employed so that I can, yeah. Be out. So that, like I was saying, it is that window sort of between eight A.M. and 11 where the UV's out and then the sunrise,  even the weather app in your phone will tell you when that is. And then I think I, I've learned more about, um, how blue, blue lights really sneaky in, in the evening.

So I am.  Uh, if I can, if I'm in my own house, I'll be much more strict, and I do definitely sleep better when I can control everything with the light. Um, and it does make a difference. Um, I, I think, you know, blocking blue light from above, just being mindful of really small lights and having sort like your room so dark that if you have your hand in front of you, you can't see it.

So, so I would say for me that the light is the biggest, um. Sort of needle mover, but then that's the issue. Um, melatonin and cortisol are completely light driven hormones, so it makes sense that cortisol is a fear and light sensor. And then melatonin, even though it's made in the dark, it isn't necessarily a hormone of darkness, but we can just pretend it is for today.

So yeah, because those two are so dependent on light, that's why I put, um, that particular routine above anything else. I'm not adverse to sleep supplements. I could go on for ages and all the times, and I've been desperate, oh, all the things that I've used. But I definitely, if I ever do that, I'll, I won't take it again the next day ever because it's, again, opening up windows and I don't do it very often, but everybody gets a time when something's been horribly disrupted and you just have to, um, use some kind of supplement.

So I've never used like Ambien or Zopiclone or benzodiazepines, nothing pharmaceutical. There's all sorts of other things, but again, that's for a whole other podcast. And I, and I think there.  Uh, they're, they're nothing compared to getting your light. Right. It, it's like an absolutely em emergency. Um, there.

So I would say the biggest needle mover just to loop back is light just trumps everything. Oh, absolutely. And I'm so glad that you're trumpeting that message 'cause it's just so, so important. And to your point, sadly, it's this mist I'm trying to get the message across that light is a drug, darkness is a drug and it has very measurable, real-world effects.

Um, and to your point, I'm very, very passionate on my fears of people going down the path of some of these pharmaceuticals for long-term use, benzodiazepines, Z drugs, et cetera. Very, very concerning. And we see it so, so often and it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't have to go that direction. And I appreciate you underscoring the immense difference that just beginning with light.

And then we can open up the doors into some of the other very important topics that you touched on today. So. To that point, how can people follow you and start to even go in deeper with all the knowledge that you have and the programs that you have available? Let them know what steps they can take.

Okay, so I go by, um, busy superhuman on social media. So I've got Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. Um, and then when it comes to affordable courses, I've got a, um, a $29 a month, um, monthly coaching group, and that's hosted in Facebook so people can ask questions. And we have two lives a week on Zoom. So again, sometimes it's easier to answer a question face-to-face, and I've got a Quantum Foundations, um, mini course.

And that sort of EE even though it's a foundational course, it does require some scientific knowledge. And I'm at the moment making a super simple course for people like my mum because there's a big demand for, um, there's a really big demand for really simple things as in, um, what's red light? How can it help me?

What does the science say? Do I need to buy anything? If so, what and how do I do it right? How do I do it wrong? And yeah. Protocol. Then I've got the same for cold thermogenesis, EMF, circadian eating. So it's, it's designed for, for people that, um, want me to basically tell 'em what to do. Yeah. But they still need to know within reason why they're doing it.

And they need to have some scientific backing in case their doctor asks them why they're doing this. And, and then with my quantum foundations, that's slightly more complicated because it sort of builds upon that. But again, not everybody is a complete beginner and lots of people, the basic course would, you know, would, you know the, the information in there might not, might be a bit simple.

But then again, um, I. The protocols are there. And when I, with my membership group, some of the lives we can go, we go like really deep of going through one of Jack Cruz's blogs or, um, it can go as deep as a a as I want. Um, because again, people that, um, do all of this, but they just love learning as well.

And they're, they're implementing things or not. I, there are people who know more than me about quantum physics, my clients who I need to tell off 'cause they love absorbing the information and talking about it and learning about, um. Sort of the intricacies of light and water and semiconductors and things like that.

So I've got stuff that caters for all levels. So I think being a Pilates teacher, that really taught me how to communicate with the general public. 'cause I spent 13 years doing that, and I also do hypnosis. So I have to be able to convey things to anybody who might walk through the door. And I think that was a massive bonus for me because I wouldn't, if I'd have just gone straight from being a scientist, um, into trying to teach people without the Pilates, I would just be even more confusing than some of the scientists who make videos.

So, so I, I, I'm able to. Um, break it down into sort of simple language, um, so the person can understand it and it, and, and then I've got so many different ways of trying to explain things to people. So, so again, even though it sounds complicated, quantum physics and electrons and deuterium and, you know, things like this, uh, that's why my very simple course, it is my attempt, but I'm sure there'll, there'll still be something that's complicated.

And then again, for people that want to go really deep and discuss, um, Jack's cryptic logs and trying to coat his gems, I, I offer that. Um, kind of service as well. And I do do some one-to-one consultations, although I'm a bit limited for time, and, and I, I'm just being perfectly honest, I, I, I'm not, if somebody isn't investing, is not gonna do quantum biology and make excuses, I don't want to work with them.

But I'll go out my way for people who are willing to make lifestyle changes regardless of what the condition is. 'cause like I was telling you before we started recording, I'm doing a course with Natia, it's on cancer, and I've worked, I've training with Dr. Tom Cowan again, so he has a different view of, of cancer.

And also having worked, doing rehab with neurology, uh, neurological situations don't bother me. So I, I, the, it doesn't matter what the problem the person's got is it depends on how willing they are to do things, to change it. Like, yes, of course I know about loads of supplements, but I've kind of don't want to.

Use that route. They, I've learned that sort of, if I invest energy into doing something, I get a bigger reward. Like taking a supplement is almost like, you know, going to the gym and somebody else does the workout and I get the benefits. And in terms of the grand schemes of the universe, I think it's cheating.

Whereas if I put the effort to do my CT and all of my light stuff, I reap the benefits because the energy expended wasn't financial, it was time or my effort. And then that's why those are the kind of people I like to work with. And yes, I do get people who want to be a perfectionist, so I'll try and tone that down.

But I like them really because they're trying. Yeah. So I think, again, I think in terms of one-to-one, if people want to try, then, um, I, I'm more than happy to help. But I, I, I like. Groups and I like courses 'cause I think as when you've got a group of people all doing the same thing, it it's, it's more powerful in some ways than a one-to-one.

Although in a one-to-one, you know, can obviously divulge private things as well. So in terms of my content, there's a lot of free stuff that's educational. 'cause I'll, you know, I am generous with information, um, as well. So that's where my YouTube channel, my Instagram and TikTok, that's where you can get sort of free stuff as well.

Ah, fantastic. Well I so appreciate one just. Your mission, your commitment to getting this information out to the masses and to your point, being able to bridge these worlds so effortlessly given your unique background that makes you perfectly suited to share this information in a way that actually makes the difference so that people can hear it and then apply it.

So it's so, so important and I thank you for the work that you're doing and for taking the time in the midst of your travels and, and all that you got going on. So I really, really appreciate it, Sara and we will be sharing this very soon to get this out. And definitely for anyone listening, be sure to follow Sara.

And to your point, I love that you have different price points and affordable options for people, you know, wherever they might be at, that they can begin on this journey in some way that works for them, no matter their price points or what have you, and really get this life-changing information. Oh, oh, thank you.

Oh, no, it's been a real pleasure talking to you. I've really enjoyed it. It is like third time lucky as we would say. And it's, you know,  it was, it is. It's been really fun. I had a, I've had a fun afternoon. Oh, like you said, we could have just done this all day, like our own, but it's done. It  definitely. Well more to come.

Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it.  You've been listening to The Sleep Is A Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet.

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