190: Bastian Groiss, Circadian Life App: Must-Download App To Unlock Better Sleep w/Circadian Alignment

  Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of sleep as a skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.

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Each week I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness.

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And I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.

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Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. In this episode, we're joined by Bastion, the co founder and creator of the circadian life app, a true advocate for natural living and circadian rhythms. Bastion's personal health journey fueled by chronic fatigue led him to uncover the incredible impact of light exposure and circadian alignment.

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Take a look. This discovery inspired the creation of the circadian app, a tool designed to help others reconnect with natural rhythms for better sleep and overall wellbeing. Together, we'll dive into the why and how behind aligning daily habits and natural light cycles to boost energy, optimize sleep, sleep and cultivate vitality.

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If you're looking for simple, actionable ways to bring more balance into your life, you won't want to miss this one. And beyond that, of course, we dive into light, dark cycles and how to align those with your particular environment. But it also goes deeper than that into things like meal timing or exercise timing and so much more.

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So I highly recommend getting this app. To download the app, just click on the link in the show notes. And I'm really excited for you to utilize this app because it's made such a difference for myself and other clients. So I think you're going to love it and we're going to get into the episode now, but first a few words from our sponsors.

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And as a reminder, these sponsors really help keep this podcast going. So definitely check out some of their offerings and we only align with partners that we truly believe in. So check them out.  Important question. Can you see the hand in front of your face in your bedroom? If so, you need to hear about our sponsor who is revolutionizing the blackout shade space and finally making it easy and affordable to get a truly blacked out bedroom.

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We talk about a lot of things on this podcast. And certainly if you've tuned in a few times, you've probably heard us discuss circadian health, circadian biology, ways in which you can optimize your results with your sleep through your circadian health. And.  One of the things I've mentioned countless times has been to download the Circadian Life app.

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So we're in for a treat today because we actually have the creator of that app here to not only just guide us through the ins and outs to get you the best results there, but kind of the why, so the how and the why. I mean, I really would love to make this kind of like a 411 on ways in which you can Maybe have fun or the bring some fascination to this concept of designing a circadian aligned lifestyle.

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So without further ado, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Pleasure. Thanks for having me, Mollie. Yes, absolutely. Now I know a while back, years back, I think it was kind of in the midst of like the pandemic and what have you, we were able to have A short conversation. We did a little IG live and sharing just the power of your app.

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And I'm very excited to go in deeper today. So maybe we could kind of start at the beginning of what had you take such a stance as to create an app like this? Why was this important for you to do kind of shed light on this? No pun intended.  Well, the light, the light took a while to come into my life, so to speak.

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To become aware of the light. Um, I  think it was in 2016 when I found myself, um, basically being tired all the time.  Like every, someone asked me, how are you? And I'm, I'm tired. So at some stage I started to recognize that broken records going on and yeah, a year, two years in, I really got over it. I really got sick of.

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Me being in that way or me kind of tooting my own horn again, like, Oh, I'm tired. I'm tired. Um, so I, I started looking into things and did some research  and, um, initially like for more like happens for most people that go onto the diet train and change their diet and look at that. I did that too.  I learned that carbs don't make me fat.

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Sorry, I learned that fat doesn't make me fat, but carbs do. So that was, that was kind of my first kind of big, um, light bulb going on. And I just went on researching and read a few books. Um, and actually the, uh, nutritionist I was working with back then, she recommended that I look into cold exposure.  And I was like, okay, that's novel.

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I hadn't heard of that. I started looking and I came across Swim Hoff, and then by chance I stumbled a, um, across a blog post from Jack Cruz. Mm, yes. Called, called, called Thermogenesis the Ancient Pathway. Um, it's an extremely intense deep dive. into mammalian, um, physiology, biology.  And I was like shocked in a way.

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My, my brain was blown. Yes. And I  somehow needed to go back to that, to that blog post and read it again and again. It took me a while to digest it.  And it opened me up to eventually circadian rhythms and light. And when I came across that particular, the light piece, um, something in me lit up literally because I was like, fascinated.

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I was like drawn into it resonated so much within me.  So I spent the next few years kind of really listening, reading, um, consuming everything I could find on that topic  and changed over time, changed my habits, changed my lifestyle.  And try to figure out, so what does it actually mean for me on a daily basis?

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And initially I thought, oh, well, I've done all that work now and it feels like other people have similar questions and facing similar problems. Yes. So maybe there's an interest for that.  Um, and rather than going down the route of kind of life coaching, health coaching,  um, which was on my mind, the idea of an app kind of came to, um, came to fruition  in a sense.

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And even so, I was hesitant, um,  in a way using technology to tell, to tell people to kind of go outside and ditch technology a bit more. It was a bit counterintuitive, but, um, that's just where people at these days and where you reach people. And it's also good.  A good tool to, um,  I guess there's a bit of a play component to it.

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Yeah. And people like, people like that. So um, long story short,  yeah, I had some support. I talked to a few friends and um, got some funding and we went down the, the app route and that's where we all know, a few years later. Wow. Fascinating. I'm so grateful that you did take that leap because it has helped so many, myself included.

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And I had a similar story around 2016 stumbling across upon Jack Cruz and also having the this, ah, you know, light bulb moment. No, no pun intended. So many puns. And it just completely shifted the course of my life. So completely understand that. And now that you've taken those steps to create this app, maybe we can share more.

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So for people that maybe are newer to this concept of a circadian aligned lifestyle or these different words to describe how your environment and your actions can. have real world consequences on our health and well being and certainly our sleep, maybe walking us through what some of those components are and how and why we might need an app to get connected to those.

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Well, I mean, to be frank, we really don't need an app.  But it is crazy how many things go into it, right? Because when you really do peel back the layers, there's so much that we have gotten, we're divorced from.  so backwards in our societal norms that sometimes it takes like, Oh, wait, our meal timing will affect our circadian health, our exercise timing, our light timing.

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Yeah. So I hear you. There are certain components there. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like it's reverse engineering because we've, we've gone, most people have gone so far off from any connection to nature, from any kind of. Supportive, um, rhythm and lifestyle that  we need help. That's where we are. Yes. Um, we need guidance, we need support.

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And  so that's where, that's where an app or, you know, a coach or someone, some external kind of resource that's aiding our process and guiding our process is really, really helpful.  And  there's interesting that the light piece is almost like  at the core or not, maybe not at the core, but it's a big part of our disconnection,  like we do not even the way we live under artificial lights 24 seven all year round.

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Most people are not even aware, really, when it's winter. Yes, we are aware of it when we step outside, but we're not really in touch with it. We are, you know, getting into a car that's warm. We go into a house that's warm. Um, it's always usually the same kind of lights that we live under. So we don't really notice when anything outside changes.

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If it's, it's raining down here hard at the moment. Normally people would turn on the lights inside.  Yeah. So we wouldn't even notice in a sense that it's a gloomy, gray, kind of wet, miserable day. Yeah.  So we, we, we do all these things and we live disconnected from our environment.  And the problem is it's kind of a static field of input that we're getting.

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Yes. We're getting the same temperature. We're getting the same light conditions.  And that's also true for day and night. It doesn't really matter if it's the middle of the day or if it's the middle of the night. It's usually people have AC and they have their lights on and nothing really changes.

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Exactly. Be it winter, be it summer, and then,  um, we get a bit of a shock when we step outside because the conditions are so different and our system isn't used to it, and that creates a bit of a mismatch. Yes. Ugh. I couldn't agree more. I mean Right, like the very popular book, The Comfort Crisis, I think speaks to this as well, because it is so comfortable for all of us, we've, you know, it comes to just have the familiarity effect where we're just familiar with this sort of lifestyle, I think it's always been like this, but really, it's such a new phenomenon, and really problematic that we have this static temperature, the static lighting and that disconnection.

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So your app really aims to interrupt that in a particular way and be kind of tailored to each individual because so commonly we'll have these like blanket questions where people will say, okay, fine. So you're saying we need to get outside for whatever morning sunlight. Um, Well, how long, tell me kind of like the prescriptive piece.

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And it turns out that there are some aspects to where you are on the globe and other things to consider. And your app aims to speak to that. Yes. And it's, it's also, but it's an interesting component. What you mentioned that tell me what to do. Yes. Totally. That's,  yes, I get that, but it's also a problem in and of itself.

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And we, I guess we, most people have these questions, A, because there's so much information, there's so much conflicting information. Yes. We're all so busy, we don't have time to figure out what it actually is that would serve us, because it's a bit of a journey to get there,  but that it's in and of itself, that question, tell me what to do, is almost like a bit of a victim mentality.

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Yes.  So feed me and, and that's not helpful in and of itself, but it's also tied into the way we live. We live so disconnected from each other. We don't really, we,  it's almost like that. It's an interesting thing because for me, the last few years, it was more about slowing down.  Yeah.  Um, because everything in our lives, be it the jobs, um,  be it the light, be it the, just the traffic, everything is just so fast paced.

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And it's, it's like a stressor that it's almost like impossible for us to slow down. Hmm. Absolutely. And it's interesting how light fits into that because the artificial light we live under is, um,  is, is a stressor in and of itself.  These artificial lights have been actually developed to, for the workplace for people to be more productive.

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And it works that way because it's like a non switch for adrenaline and for cortisol. So it makes you more awake, but there is no break, so to speak. If you're constantly like buzzing and going, you can do that for a while, but eventually you burn out. And that's just one of the things we see. Yes.

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Absolutely. And we see the same effects with, um, with the eyes, for example, I mean, the, it's ridiculous how many eye problems, short sightedness, myopia in particular, we're seeing. It's, it's almost like, uh, half of the world's population is myopic by now, which is ridiculous. Right. It's, it's ridiculous. And,  um, a huge part, even though people don't like to hear that, but a huge part is the artificial light we're living under.

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Yeah. Because it's literally like oxidizing. the retina elongating the eyeball and the repair and the energy for the repair that's supposed to happen, um, is not, is not there because we're living under these artificial lights, which are  elevated in blue and are absent of the red and infrared.  And it's just that, that break and that balance is, is a pacemaker.

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It sets the pace. It's a fast pace. Come on, keep going, keep going, keep going. The tissue can't do that. It can do that for a certain while, but eventually it breaks down and you have, um, yeah, problems that are developing first in the cells, then in the organ and so on and so forth. So  the,  it's interesting the, and you, you said the interrupting in a way we want to interrupt that pace  and connect back into something that's more stable, that's more relaxed, that's more homely,  that's more comfortable, that's slower and that.

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It's the pace of the Earth, it's the pace of the day and night, that's a seasonal pace, a seasonal change,  and  it's really  reflected in the environment around us, but since we're not paying attention, or are too distracted, or we're running too fast and we're not noticing. Yes.  So that's, that's just that big, that big mismatch.

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And the problem with that is that  the clock that's in our bodies, or the millions of clocks that are in our bodies, but particularly the master clock in our brain,  it orchestrates everything that needs to happen in our bodies. And if we disrupt that clock  by behaviors that give us the wrong timing information,  then that's another spanner in the works.

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So it's another level of. Disconnection is another level of inflammation that spreads throughout the body and then wherever it's most pronounced,  disease shows up or problems show up.  Absolutely. So, so, and that's where it's really so important, I feel, to find a touchstone and an anchor  somewhere. that  helps us to kind of come back to ourselves and to come back to the world around us, not the artificial world that we created, but the actual, the actual world that's, that's life giving and that's,  um,  sustaining us.

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So, and that's really where  First of all, awareness around the cycle of the sun,  when we go to bed, when we eat, when we exercise, all these things we engage in, like on a daily basis,  consciously or unconsciously,  to bring consciousness and awareness back to our choices. So we have.  an anchor and a basis from which we can step forward into the world and  take action a bit more, um, I guess at a slower pace and a bit more empowered and enabled, not from a victim place, tell me what to do, but no, no, I know, I know what's good for me.

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I know what I need to do. I know what I want to do and stepping forward from there rather than  like, shit, it's all too much. Yes, absolutely. And for the people listening that then might say, Okay, well, I get the generalized idea. So brighter days, darker nights. Do I need to download an app and what have you?

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And as you pointed to, yeah, maybe you can take the steps to figure it out yourself. But there are so many steps, including the nuance of that light. And so one of the things that you point to, and light is not the only aspect there, but you do help carve that out. And particularly even breaking down UVA and UVB light, daybreak, all these nuances to the light cycle that I think certainly the average person just isn't aware of and can go in deeper to learn of the many health benefits that could be present and that are sometimes at odds with some of the narratives that we might be kind of receiving about the world.

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sunlight. So wondering if you can share a little bit about some of those things that someone might see if they download this app. And by the way, I think it's like free. I'm pretty sure to download, right? Yes. So someone downloads this and then what are like kind of walk us through what they might see and how that might kind of inform some of their choices of when to get outside.

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Because we get this question a lot too, because people will say, well, I only have so much time to get outside. So when should I go outside? And this app could be helpful in that question, I would imagine. Yes, I mean, there are more ideal times or more, more helpful times, but at the end of the day, to keep it simple is actually better as in just get out.

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Yeah. Totally. Yes. Oh my God. Totally. And worry about the rest later and make that getting out kind of more consistent and make that into a habit  because it's not that, you know, like  when many people try to whatever, let's say  have an exercise or start with an exercise program.  It usually goes well for a week or two or three weeks.

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But then we usually follow the bandwagon.  So it's a consistency. I cannot, and that's actually in the word, like rhythm, circadian rhythm, rhythmicity,  this implied in that is consistency.  So true. Because without being consistent,  you're, you're having a disruption of your rhythm.  Yes. And that, that's exactly what we're trying to minimize.

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The disruptions. And that can come in so many different ways, whether it's a sleep in on the weekend. Yes. Um,  whether that's, you know, staring in your phone before you go to bed. Um, or if you wake up, what's that better? Yes. Um, whether that's, that's eating late. Um, it's, it's so many or, or exercising late.

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It's, it's interesting. So even from just saying that going on eating late. Looking at the phone late, um, or having a late night, all these things.  a problem and a massive disruption.  Why? Because, well, again, if we look at nature,  night is the time for, at least for diurnal kind of creatures like we are. Yeah.

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It's the time to kind of slow down  and to rest.  And  we just,  often tend to go on our own and going like, no, well, I don't care right now. I want to do this. I had a long day at work and  I don't give a da, da, da, da. Um,  so that's,  That's where we often kind of, in a way, our own worst enemy, because we think we're doing something good for ourselves, but really it's kind of, we're shooting ourselves in the foot.

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Yes. So the, the, the whole idea of, of rhythmicity and continuity and consistency,  I could not overemphasize that enough because that's really where people drop the ball again and again and again. Yeah. Yeah. And so this can be, I loved the anchoring kind of approach with the sunlight and darkness. So kind of anchoring around that and having that be part of our rhythm.

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And I love the simplicity too of the consistency. Just getting yourself outside would be a win for most of us, considering most of us are spending such an inordinate amount of time indoors. And I think many people might innately know, all right, you're more likely to burn in the middle of the day. And it's kind of a little bit different of like a pretty sunrise, pretty sunset, but maybe kind of sharing, breaking down a little bit of that, the differences and how they can play out differently on our health.

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Sure. I mean, I posted, I posted something yesterday, I think, was a new study where they looked at UK biobank data, um, and basically found out that the people was, who spent more time outside and who had lived in an area that had more, um, UV exposure,  um, just had less mortality.  Yeah. So translation,  more UV light,  less death, or longer life, healthier life.

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Um,  so there's, there's countless studies like that, there's countless studies on red light on. So we. It's not that the problem is that the studies aren't there, it's just people either don't connect the dots,  or don't look, or in a way,  don't want to know because it's kind of too inconvenient and just kind of disrupts what they're doing and what disrupts industries.

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But also, like, what disrupts convenience, right, we're really attached to our convenience and the way we do things and we usually have a resistance to change.  But so from a light perspective, again, it's like, if we look at nature, when is nature most active? It's most active at dawn and at dusk. Interesting.

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Yeah, that's when the insects out and when the animals out and then usually at at solar noon, particularly the closer you go to the equator, everything rests, everything's heights because it's kind of too intense. Yes.  And then later in the afternoon, kind of things pick up again. And, and again, we usually do it the opposite way now in our Western world.

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Let's say on the weekend, summertime. Yeah, we have a sleep in, we had a busy week. We sleep in, we get up, we have breakfast, then we go to the beach or go outside middle of the day. Yes.  It's a surprise when we get burnt. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's ridiculous behavior wise.  So  at sunrise. Um, the blue light that appears  is kind of the signal of nature going like the day starts, make cortisol, make adrenaline, wake up.

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That's what wakes us up. Yes. So we need that head of blue light. Um, and unfortunately you can't get that from your phone in the same way, or fortunately,  you can't get that from your phone because it's simply not bright enough.  And it's also not balanced, um, meaning it has no red and, um, infrared, like sunlight is always about 50 percent red and infrared light, always.

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There's, there's no, there's no time where natural light is not inundated with red light and infrared light, doesn't exist.  So it's a, it's a really key piece, um, to kind of keep in mind because pretty much none of your normal LEDs or your screens. have any significant amount of that at all. Yes. Used to be when, when we had incandescence, but unfortunately they were phased out.

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Yes. Phased out. Totally. Ugh. Okay. And then like after sunrise, UVA appears, which is, you can think about it as an on switch for hormone production, endorphins,

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Nitric oxide in the skin is being made, which dilates the blood vessels. There's a whole range of hormonal cascades that being triggered by UVA light, which is super helpful and super  beneficial. Your mood will increase, your energy levels will increase.  So that's what, for example, UVA rise, which is,  Well, it's hard to, hard to tell when it is unless you look in the app, exactly.

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Um, but it's, it's roughly, um, an hour, let's say,  can be half an hour, can be one and a half hours after sunrise, depends on where you are and when in the year.  Um, so it's, it's also an extremely good time to be outside and witness that. and get that light information into your eyes and onto your skin. And then  an hour or so later, you have UVB rise, which is when you can make vitamin D,  um, which most everyone is deprived of these days as well.

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And obviously just being outside and being covered doesn't do it. You actually need to have skin in the game. Yeah, literally.  Right.  Yeah, exactly.  And then solanone solanone is is also really, um, I guess for people who have less time or not much time, let's say if you're, if you're working all day long  and you, you want to, you get the most, um, bang for your time, so to speak.

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Sure.  You go out at solar noon for five or 10 minutes and get, get a good light dose in because the light is just most intense. Um, but if you are, let's say  skin type one, red hair, freckles, and you live in Australia.  You want to be mindful, right? Because your, uh, your skin is just not well equipped for the environment you're living in.

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So you need to pay more attention on your, your behavior needs to be more aligned  and aware of what's around you. Meaning you need your, your time of acclimatization  and preparing your skin so it can actually handle that, that environment, which your body isn't used to, just takes more diligence and more time.

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Yes, absolutely. Today, I want to talk to you about something that often flies under the radar, but is absolutely crucial for great sleep minerals. Now you've heard me talk about circadian rhythms, light exposure, temperature control, and more, but let's dive into the foundational elements that fuel our body's ability to sleep.

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deeply and restoratively, specifically minerals. Our modern lifestyle with its processed foods and environmental stressors can leave us depleted of essential minerals. This depletion can mess with our sleep quality, leading to issues like restless legs, poor sleep initiation, and waking up in the middle of the night.

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Magnesium, for example, is known as nature's relaxant, helping to calm the nervous system, support muscle relaxation, and some argue by extension can promote deep, restful sleep. Beam's magnesium is sourced in a way that ensures maximum absorption and effectiveness, making it a key part of my sleep routine.

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So if you've been struggling with sleep and feel like you've tried everything, it might be time to look at what's happening on a cellular level. B minerals can help fill in those gaps and give your body the support it needs for truly restorative sleep. So head on over to beam minerals spelled B E a M today and use the code sleep as a skill.

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All one word at checkout to get a special discount on your order, your body and your sleep will thank you.  One of the things that I think might be interesting, too, is we, every person that we bring on the podcast, we ask a few questions around how they're managing their own life, their own sleep habits.

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And so I think that could be a cool place to find out how you're kind of utilizing all that you've learned in your own lifestyle. But before we get into those questions, is there anything I know we're just scratching the surface on this huge topic. But is there anything that we left out on this conversation of the app, the ways that we can create a circadian aligned lifestyle?

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Any kind of closing thoughts on that? Well, I mean, that's, that's so much, I mean, the, the key, the, the key tenets, and I think you covered them many times in your podcasts, are really  having a good light hygiene.  And by that, so I just, let's just get the headlines. Good light hygiene. Um, having an eating window that's probably shorter than most people are used to.

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Yes. So definitely less than 12 hours. Mm hmm.  Better less than 10.  Yes.  And also ideally shifting that eating window earlier. It's such a, it's such a trend these days to kind of skip breakfast and then whatever, have lunch and have a, have a late dinner.  Um, that's, don't get me wrong. It's better than, than having a, you know, eating for 16 hours  and, and snacking all the time without a doubt.

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Yet there's just so much research showing clearly that the earlier the eating window is and the earlier you stop eating in the day, the better. Yes.  Um,  then exercise is another, is another good aspect. So moving, moving your body,  um, there's ideal times to do that. But again, that's really not so, it's not that important.

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Same with light. Yes. If you get the sunrise, if you get the UVA rise, awesome. If you get the sunset, wicked.  Great, great on you if you can do that.  Same with, same with exercise timing. Yes. If you, if you have some time after you get up and you, you go for a walk or you do some exercise, wicked. If you, if you're into performance and want to maximize your, um, your lap time or whatever it is  during that, in that, in that afternoon window to early evening window,  that, you know, aligns with the peak of your body temperature, great if you can do that.

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Just getting out and doing exercise and just getting out and getting natural light is much more important than getting hung up on the times. Yes. And just not doing it.  Totally. Ugh. So,  yeah, that's, that's, that's really the key. And then  just maybe on the light hygiene,  the, the two most important aspects simply put is getting natural, making sure that you get natural light first thing into your eyes in the morning.

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Yes. Not switching LEDs on, not looking at your phone when you're lying in bed, like, no, just  step outside.  Get some natural light into your eyes for five to 10 minutes. And then, you know, start your day or get on with your day. Oh, true.  And it's so transformative just bringing in that one practice and it can kind of help this snowball effect of the intrigue and interest in these other things that could further support your circadian alignment.

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But that one being such a keystone place to begin. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really I feel like the key thing really is I always, I always  Say like pick one thing  that resonates the most that you're drawn to the most and change that consistently do that every day for  at least six weeks, but better like three months.

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And just commit to that and dedicate to that because it's not so much, yes, we can, you can, you can read all the research, you can listen to all the podcasts, you can  do read all the books, whatever, you can go all out and have all the whys,  but it's, it feel like it's much more important if you actually feel the impact  and it's, it's, again, it's about paying attention and in a way  getting out of the mind, which is usually like fast paced.

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Yes. Yes. Yes.  And way too busy anyway, and it doesn't shut up anyways,  so to actually like drop more into the body and feel the impact and I feel like that's really where natural light is so powerful because it can, it can slow us down literally, not just mentally, but really physically and viscerally, we'll get a visceral impact of the hormonal changes and how good the sunlight feels on our skin.

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Yes. And so it's just, it's just really more that, that  we've, that everyone focuses on one area that they want to change  and whether that's, you know,  eating earlier  or shrinking the eating window or  seeing the sunrise or the UVA rise or going out at noon. It doesn't really matter what it is or putting on the blue blockers at night and mitigating that artificial light environment.

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seems like the most kind of poignant and kind of tucks at your heartstrings, so to speak, a little bit. That's the one you want to kind of go for  and then really commit to that and feel  what that does to you and how you feel it, how you're impacted. Yes. Oh, I couldn't agree more. And I do think one of the exciting things in recent years, as we, you know, get this information out more to the masses, I think I would wager that for many people, it hasn't even been on the table, or it's been a blind spot that, you know, this sort of light hygiene and the management of our light environment and light dark environments, just how profound this could impact our well being.

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It hasn't necessarily been in the narrative quite in such a significant way. I think there's this opportunity to just put that in to the mix as prevalent as the nutrition piece, the exercise piece, hopefully considerations for sleep, etc. But this can now emerge as a real choice to make and potentially the foundation by which you layer in all these other, you choices, you know, because then if we have this blueprint of when the light is present, we do a certain set of things.

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And when the darkness is present, we do a certain set of other down regulatory things. It can really be a guiding piece. So the guiding principle is so poignant. It's also actually really poignant with regards to diet. Yes. Because I mean, I don't know how many, you know, hundreds of new diet, diet books appear every year.

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And also the, the arguments we get into, or people get into around what's the right diet and what's appropriate and et cetera, et cetera.  Well,  your environment can guide you.  Yes. What grows in your environment,  what's around you, what's in season.  And if you just stick to natural foods,  that's it. I mean, you can't, you can't, you can't overcomplicate it.

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And yes, if people have extreme health conditions. Um, you know, more, more extreme measures or you might need to cut out certain certain food groups for a while. Um, but really  your environment is the blueprint for what you should eat. Yes. Ugh.  It simplifies. If it's not in season, if you need to ship it in.

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It's  not in your best interest to do so.  Totally. And we could, you know, we could go into the,  into the details around why that is, but really  it's almost like, doesn't matter because it's more like a feeling.  I'm, I'm, I'm coming more and more back to that. I almost like, don't want to know about all the details anymore.

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I want to, I want to, I want, I want to, and I am simplifying my life so much and I'm slowing my life down. down so much  that  additional content, additional information is actually like, sorry, I'm not interested because I'm feeling I'm learning to feel my way more rather than figuring it out up here. I love that.

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So profound. Well, to that point, I'm very curious to hear how you're organizing your life and your rhythms. And it sounds like if what you've shared is any kind of. guidance or insight that it's going to be that simplifying is probably a part of our takeaway. But our first question that we ask everyone is, what does your nighttime sleep routine look like right now?

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Well, I'm a bit of a light nerd, but it's, it's interesting how it started out with a lot of thought and a lot of figuring it out. Totally. Yep. And now it's just completely intuitive and feeling like I can't.  I can't even be under artificial light without my eyes hurting anymore. Yes.  Absolutely. So without, without wearing blue blockers at night, it's just like,  it's not just, it's just like not happening.

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That's probably the only, that's probably the only tool where I would say, unless you live really completely And you don't use electronics at night.  You need blue blockers. That's probably the only tool where I would say like, it's the one non negotiable  to manage your light hygiene, to manage your circadian rhythm, to manage your sleep,  to manage your health, really.

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Um, that's, that's non negotiable. So at the moment here in New Zealand, it's the middle of winter.  So it gets dark around five 30  and then my blue blockers go on. I mean, I don't really have any lights that I use as I have a salt lamp. I have a red light, my screen has iris installed,  um,  I have my blue blockers and that's it.

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And then I do my thing, usually work a little bit at night, which is not ideal, but it's kind of low key.  And then I do my, I do my meditation before I go to bed and yeah, brush my teeth and that's that's about it. And then I go to bed. Simplified. It's totally been simplified. I love it. And I completely relate to what you're saying about maybe in the beginning, more of that figuring out that has to happen.

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And so many of us are so many people that we work with will see lots of firing of fire. questions and clarifying, well, how about this? How can I go on at this time? And all these questions to try to get it right. But ultimately, once we start living in this way, it becomes so much more innate. And as we just follow the wisdom of nature, it really becomes pretty second nature.

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So love that that's simple. And I think it's important to kind of be open for things to kind of change. Yes. Like it's kind of difficult when, when we're really set in our ways, To make a change or to do things differently. It's, it's just an example with a nighttime. Like  I really don't like, feel like going out anymore, particularly in winter.

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Yes, I might do it  once a month or twice a month, maybe  just driving the car, even with a blue blockers and all the headlights. And then I go somewhere and there's bright lighting. I just,  and my body actually wants to rest. I'm not, I don't have,  I could conjure up the energy, but I don't, my body wants to rest.

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I want to slow down. I want to relax. I want to have a conversation with someone or read a book or maybe watch a movie or just low key. Yes, I couldn't agree more. Oh my gosh.  So I guess the point I'm trying to make is just that things can change. And yes, it might, or it is likely going to go against what most everyone around you is doing.

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Yes. But  while it's kind of bound to be that way, because everyone is kind of living a really disconnected lifestyle. So if you want to start connecting a bit more, There is some friction in your social kind of environment and kind of context that you're going to face. And  that's why it's important to just pick one thing and just stick to that for a good chunk of time, rather than trying to do everything at once, because it's not going to, it's, it's, it's going, it would be too disruptive.

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It would be too unsettling, too uncomfortable, too much at once. It's really important to steep.  and really lean into something for a long time and get familiar with that and let the body come on board with that and the nervous system so that there is a relaxation in that for you personally and then you know like yes that's what I want that's what my body wants and there's no doubt anymore  and then it's just much easier to kind of just stick with it and not give a damn what  your friends might be doing or saying or whatnot.

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Because without,  without that ballast, without that relaxation in yourself and that knowing in yourself, and it's not a knowing in the head, it's a knowing in the heart or in the body, it's visceral,  um, will always be kind of pulled in different directions. And that's why I feel like that slowing down and anchoring more and finding anchors that are really helping you to kind of ground.

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It's just so important, particularly in today's kind of crazy world. Totally,  and I think it all speaks to if we are to just kind of follow the masses, we're likely to get the same diseases that the masses are getting, and kind of the same even mental health crises, and many, many things that I believe have elements or roots in some of this disconnection to our circadian health.

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the rhythms of nature, et cetera, and we'll have to talk offline. But one of the things I've been wanting to create more of ages ago, had gotten the domain, um, circadian collective and want to just have more events that are circadian aligned just for people like us. that you don't want to have to hang with other people that want to do like daytime activities and outdoor centric things because that's one of the things we see is the pain point for people in our programs it's like okay so they start feeling so good and they're so aligned but then they also want to be social and they want to be able to hang out and so it's like how can we be leaders in this arena and kind of create the environment to be able to connect, which is so crucial for our well being, but also on our, in alignment with the rhythms of nature.

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So, you know, stay tuned, but if, and when I start kind of setting those things up, I will definitely be having circadian life app at like the top of, okay, download this. as a component of living this lifestyle, especially for people that are newer to these conversations. It can just be such a great guide.

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Okay, so having said all that, did we touch on your morning sleep routine? So if we've looked at your evening, we're looking at quote unquote your morning sleep routine with Derek. I love my mornings. I love my morning so much. I remember you saying this when we did our IG live. I remember you talking about your and I remember the joy.

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Oh, it's just, it's just awesome. I mean, I'm really, I'm, I guess, well, I created my life the way it is right now. Um, since I don't, you know, I work, I work from home. I don't need to go anywhere. I, I arranged my own schedule. So I have the freedom  to do what I do. Yes. But I guess it's.  But that's, it's just so, I feel like the, the, that's almost like part of the problem, the schedule we are kind of, most everyone is forced into.

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Yes. Whether it's a nine to five or even worse if it's kind of, you know, shift work and, and whatnot  is such a,  it's such a prism in the sense that it doesn't allow for any  flow, for any feeling, for anything to be spontaneous.  And it's, it's a real problem because we just have to be there  at whatever time and no matter what, and that's it,  independent if you're not feeling well, if you had a, whatever, an argument or whatever it is that's going on personally,  uh, would interrupt us from, from showing up well, so the,  the more,  yeah, the more there's, A possibility and that might be a little in the beginning, but the more we can create a possibility to have more flexibility  to actually  show up for ourselves with what we need and when we need it  is such a, is such a, it's such a big piece because otherwise, um,  yeah, it's, it's just much more difficult.

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It's just much more difficult. And the mornings, the mornings to me are so sacred.  Like just getting up and then I go for a long walk with my dog,  come back, I do my exercise and that also looks different every day, depending on how I feel.  Um,  then I usually do another long, do a long meditation and then I have breakfast and that from the time I get up to the time I had breakfast, it's like three hours gone.

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Mmm. Yeah, and there's no, there's no rush. There's just really like  slow paying attention,  doing nourishing things and just.  really appreciating, um,  the beauty that's around me and I, I'm living rurally so I can, I'm also surrounded by nature and it's just, it's just such a blessing.  I love that. What a way to start your day.

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So different from getting in the car and traffic and that, you know, it's just a very different reality. That's beautiful. But just the pace, Yeah, like imagine that that other example that you should  get up, you flick on the light switch, you look at your phone, you rush and make a coffee, have a quick shower, jump in the car, sit in traffic, listen to a podcast.

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It's just one thing over the other and the other and the other and it's,  um,  yeah, it's just so against what nature does. It's just so against to what's kind of nurturing and supportive.  So that's again, wherever there's a way for the individual to find  a slower pace or having an anchor  or slowing down for a little while, or stepping outside and just the, just the fact from, if you're working in an office, just getting up from the keyboard,  going outside for five minutes, just walking, seeing something else, not looking like right in front of your eyes, but having a bit of a Vista,  just doing that for five minutes, it's just, again, it's just such a, such a shift.

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So true. And the more we can, can,  yeah, have that shift, retrain our nervous system, so to speak,  wherever, wherever that is for the individual, whatever way in there is that's, that's kind of where the gold is. Okay. And so for you, this light viewing behavior has really just been seamlessly woven into your days so that you're trending outside throughout the course of the day, in and out.

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Well, my schedule is really governed by night and day. Yeah. So I get up with the sun, I wind down with, in the middle of winter, it's a bit of a scramble at times to,  to, to eat kind of before it's dark and also walk my dog. Yeah, I know. It's sometimes a bit of a like, ah,  sometimes I need to kind of walk him when it's later or eat when it's a bit, when it's dark because of the walk took a bit longer or whatnot.

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Yeah. But again, things don't have to be perfect. Right.  That's a big one. It's, it's, don't.  It's just so easy to, to push yourself, to punish yourself, to be hard on yourself. Um, and it's not serving anyone really. So that having, having the flexibility, having being, having enough spaciousness so that you can forgive yourself and also sleep in on the weekend, for God's sake, it's not the, with the world isn't ending, you're not dying of cancer because of it,  but, but if it's a constant thing,  then this might be something to be looked at, but it'll, it'll be looked at when you're ready.

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Yeah. Right. Things will, things will come up when we're ready, not when we kind of think we should do certain things. That's why I'm saying like, find the thing that's kind of where you have a resonance with it in your body that feels like, yeah, like a yes, that makes sense. I want to do that. Right. Then follow that, because then you're ready for that, and it's most likely going to stick.

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Couldn't agree more. So good. And then, in your environment, what might we visually see on your nightstand or ambiance? Any call outs in your space? Um, there's a salt lamp, there are my blue blockers, there's a book.  And there's a red head torch for the night if I need to get up. Totally. Sounds very similar to mine too.

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Minimalism is quite the theme we've seen for the people that are sleeping well that come on this podcast, often do not have a ton of things in their space, just like peaceful environment. Love that. Okay. And then the last question would be, to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep game?

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Or maybe said another way, biggest aha moment in managing your sleep? Probably I go back to that. It's the biggest thing that still today is just a sunrise.  Yes. Like,  I don't know. I started seeing the sunrise every day,  all the way 24, probably, probably eight years ago.  seven years ago. I had really rare, I might have missed like  10 days or so over the course of these years to not seeing the sunrise.

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And it's like, I don't necessarily mean literally seeing it going up over the horizon, right? Again, we don't want to be anal. Yes, exactly. If it's a bit earlier, if it's a bit later, if it's cloudy, if it's rainy, um, it doesn't matter. You still get the benefits. But, uh,  yeah, when I, when I realized that,  I lived like 40 years of my life with maybe seeing like five sunrises.

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I was going like, what the fuck?  Seriously? Like, what?  How? Why? What?  That doesn't make sense. That's like, no, like, I'm not, I'm not doing that anymore. Like, that's like nuts. Like, why, why did I live my life that way? Yes. Because it's such a beautiful, connecting, touching,  um,  yeah, it's just such a profound experience seeing the sunrise and spending time with the sun.

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Yes. And I do a bit of sun gazing, um, when I have direct contact. Um, yeah, it's just,  just wonderful. Ugh, I couldn't agree more. So good. And for people listening and inspired by this, you know, beautiful lifestyle you've created for yourself and how to create some of this for themselves, especially in the beginning, that guidance can be really helpful.

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Or if they're people that whatever, they travel to different locations or different seasons to try to plan out and learn about the UVA, UVB, but then even like strategizing when, how you plan your day as far as the meal timing piece. And to your point, certain seasons, you're going to need to change some of your lineup of things if you're looking to really be aligned with these.

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So this can help. So what are the ways that they can get the app, follow you, et cetera? Let's keep it simple. Just the circadian. life, L I F E Yes. And you get all the links to the, uh, to the web, to the App Store, to the Play Store, um, and the social, um, contacts, it's all there. Or go just to the, to the store themselves and just search for Circadian.

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Amazing. So great. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. I know this is taking out of, you know, your winter months and you only have so many hours of sunrise and what have you, so I appreciate you taking some of that time to share your wisdom and knowledge. It means a lot. Thanks, Mollie. Thanks for spreading the word about circadian health and sleep and all the good bits.

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Oh, absolutely. Same to you, my friend. Appreciate it.  You've been listening to the sleep as a skill podcast, the top podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out the sleep obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet.

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Fun fact, I've never missed a Monday for over five years and counting. And it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to sleep as a skill. com forward slash  newsletter to sign up.