219: Dr. Raleigh Duncan, Founder and CEO, Clearlight: The Sleep-Sauna Connection—Heat Therapy Wellness Stacks For Deep Sleep

 Welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast. I say this often, but I'm really gonna say it again. I'm very excited for our guests. Uh, and again, you know, so commonly when we have people on that, I know it's just a wealth of information. Part of my struggle as, um, you know, someone in this conversation is how to fit all of this information into a relatively short period of time.

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So we're gonna see what we're gonna do. Maybe we have to have a part two or something, because I know that our guest just is. Has so much to share. Um, and this huge, huge topic around heat, utilizing heat therapies and, and more. So certainly he's, uh, quite the innovator in many aspects of health and wellbeing.

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Um, but we're gonna be really, really diving into this topic of, uh, thermal regulation and sleep, heat therapies, et cetera. So thank you so much for being here and taking the time.

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Thanks, Mollie. Happy to be here.

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Yes. Fantastic. Uh, so like I said, I have it that you are quite, um, the, the polymath, quite the, you know, so, so much that you've created in your life to help support people in health and wellbeing.

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So, uh, maybe just a little bit of a background of how you found yourself in this role and how that has related to sleep.

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Sure. Well, uh, quickly, I was, uh, 20 years in machine tool business selling computer controlled machinery to, uh, uh, industry. Yeah. And I was in Ohio of all places, and I had an existential crisis.

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It started feeling like death was stalking me literally over this, this shoulder, not this shoulder. The other one.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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And so I came to the, uh, conclusion that I, I really. I evolved that I, I needed to help people. I needed to find a way to change what I did, and so I started trying to do it in my selling machinery, but that just seemed, didn't seem to do it.

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Anyway, long story short, I, uh, ended up getting the bug, the chiropractic bug,

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and,

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uh, decided to go to chiropractic school. I was in my mid forties and I moved my family out here to California. Uh, after doing pre-reqs back in Ohio and enrolled in chiropractic school, like I said, I was in my mid forties when I was in chiropractic school.

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I had to, uh, keep bringing money in and, and everything. And I bought an infrared sauna. Uh, not to make money, but because I, I just thought, this is really cool. And this was back in the mid nineties. And then I thought, wow, there's a business here. So that was the start of it. So I'm going to, uh, chiropractic school, which is just like medical school and what they, you know, cadaver lab, all this, uh, all the sciences.

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I. And I started selling these saunas and uh, I'd go out to home and garden shows. This was really before the advent of the internet and selling things on the internet. So that was how it started. And I got such good reception. I saw what it had done for me. Mm. I knew, and then I graduated, uh, in 2000 and I did both for a while.

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I opened a practice and then I had my sauna business. But I saw I couldn't do both well.

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Mm.

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And I really got the feeling that I could help more people with the saunas after all the. All the experience and what people had come back and told me their results from using my saunas. So we designed our own saunas and then one thing led to another and uh, it's just been a really interesting and fulfilling ride for the last 28 or so years.

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Wow. I love that. And I love the vulnerability of sharing sort of that. Existential crisis, I think. Yeah. Uh, certainly many listeners, and I know I can relate to that, um, when certainly when sleep isn't working often things in our lives aren't working. Yeah. And we commonly see that, a sense of. Purpose or being off track in our, in our lives can, you know, gna at us at surprising ways and often show up when our head hits the pillow.

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Um, so really acknowledge you for taking those steps to course Correct. Versus just, you know, take a pill to quiet it down or what have you. Yeah, yeah. Oh, good for you. Yeah. That

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doesn't, that, that's not a good prescription normally for long, for long-term health, so. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

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Exactly. Okay, so, so you start using this infrared sauna and you said that, um, you experienced these changes that were profound in your own life.

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Um, I wonder if you can share a little bit about what you saw there and then how that had you take these steps to create this whole business for yourself in that domain.

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So what I noticed right off the bat, and many people notice it, and infrared is a little different than the box of hot rocks sauna.

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Yes. Uh, because it's using infrared panels heaters to come in with an infrared wavelength. So the first thing most people see, and this is what I saw, is my skin started getting softer like in a week because the toxins were coming out in the. In the perspiration. And so you now my skin is, is healthier.

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Healing happens from the outside in.

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Mm. And

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so that's what I noticed. I noticed that, uh. Flexibility and range of motion was better, the pain was reduced, uh, things like this. So that was sort of the first take. I, I felt a little less stressed out. So those were the first things that I noticed. And then I didn't really have much problems back then.

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Sleeping. Yeah. But as I aged, I was sure I was in my forties, now I'm in my seventies and, and so that looking good. Yeah. Feel, I feel like I'm 22, so.

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Oh, that's amazing.

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Love that. Um, so then that I went through a whole other phase with sleep. Yeah. Of really, you know, it just happens 'cause uh, men's hormones, women's hormones, yes.

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Shifts so dramatically that sleep becomes elusive.

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Yes.

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And uh, and so that's where the infrared sauna is real. I notice a huge difference because I travel a lot for my business.

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Yes. And,

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and if I can't get into a sauna, that's when I have the worst sleep. Yeah. So, and I, I have a sauna right out here outside my bedroom.

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And when I can get in the sauna, I just sleep so much better.

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Mm. Makes

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a huge difference.

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And you see it immediately too. So at this 0.0 yeah. Many years of utilizing these saunas Yeah. And saunas practice. So, um, if you miss certain nights, you'll see just that dip in that quality or quantity. Yeah. Et cetera.

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Okay.

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Yeah. And so that's led me down finding you, you know, and, and trying to understand how can I, yeah. Now that I've. Got good sleep with my, uh, using the sauna. Sure. If I'm not traveling and I'm traveling, uh, let's see, uh, I was traveling probably half of last year, so it's a lot of time away from home and, and into different parts of the world with the jet lag in that whole thing.

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Yes. So it's, you know, it's challenging.

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Oh, it is. To

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do. So then I wanted to figure, now I, when I'm home, I can sleep well and I have other things I can do when I'm traveling. Um, how can I extend that?

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Mm. You know,

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what can I do? And that got me to Tex Z from Yes, from your, and I, that's, I find that that extends what I have.

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That's fantastic. You know, things like fantastic.

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I'm more deep sleep in that and you know, so

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see, I love that, um, you know, continual curiosity and experimentation Yeah. To see what's available. And it's really, um, you know, there's this, uh, Dr. Matthew Walker's kind of coining this, um, new category around instead of just sleep optimization.

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Um, sleep enhancement. Yes. So this idea of things that we're bringing in that could get us better sleep than would be possible on our own, from our own physicality. And I think you could make the argument that saunas could go into that Oh, um, bucket as well, right?

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Yeah. Well, a Cleveland Clinic came out.

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Sure. And uh, they made the, the statement that, uh, people that use infrared saunas have better sleep. That's Cleveland Clinic, you know, and they don't mess around.

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Exactly. Yes. Wow. And you've over the years 'cause um, your experience not only for yourself, but as many, um, individuals have purchased your product.

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Yes. You hear this ongoingly. 'cause that was my understanding too, with your company that Yeah, that's one of the top things that you hear back from

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Yeah. Yeah. That people sleep, like, sleep like a baby. What's, it's really not surprising because what happens with a lot of people. And we start thinking, you know, so if you can be in a relaxed state, and when you're in the infrared sauna, it comes into the muscles, you get a vasodilation, it puts you from, uh, sympathetic to parasympathetic tone.

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Yes. And you're relaxed. You're, maybe you have a, a shoulder or muscle that hurts and now it mm-hmm. Doesn't feel so bad. Mm-hmm. So all these things are happening. Sure. Uh, when you, when you come out of the infrared sauna and just sleep like a baby, it's great.

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That is amazing. Okay, so. I'm wondering, since you have so much, uh, uh, a dearth of information and history of for yourself and others mm-hmm.

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We get a lot of questions and I do have some questions too. Oh, good. Where lots of people, they wanna know the ins and the outs and sometimes may, as we were joking before we hit record. Maybe sometimes us, you know, sleep nuts, uh, can get a little like in the weeds. So

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my wife thinks I'm obsessive, you know, with everything.

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So, you know, I have, yeah, I have all these devices on my bedside that I'm trying out. Yes. You know, and putting on my head. Or, you know, the falsetto, all these things. Yeah,

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exactly. I mean, my newsletter is called, uh, sleep Obsessions for the last seven years, so I, I hear you. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so maybe part of this is just, you know, relax.

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People just hop in the sauna and don't worry about it. Yeah. But, uh, yeah. Yeah. But for those people that wanna get a little bit more information, I have some questions they're just referring to. Sure. So, um, one, uh, we asked different, uh, listeners and, um, what, one question was how long should I use Asana for, specifically for sleep optimization?

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Um, and then there was a lot of follow-ups of, and when, so the length and the timing throughout the day. Yes. Yeah.

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So anytime you take the sauna, it's gonna help, but I've found that for sleeping, taking it within an hour or so.

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Okay.

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Before, and there's a, there's a whole ritual that I go through when I do that, and that is, I'll, I'll take the, the sauna for only 20 minutes.

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Okay. And,

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and 20 minutes. I'm just schitz, you know, I'm, yes, that's enough. Totally. I don't know what your experience has been, something like that, or, yes. Did it take a long time? Absolute. Absolutely. Many everybody's different.

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And we wanna be able to, um, be a person that can sweat and sweat Well yes, because there concerns, right?

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You can certainly speak to

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Yeah.

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That. Um, and,

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and, and, and to that end, I would tell people that if you go in the sauna, in the infrared sauna and you find initially you don't sweat, well just keep at it. Yes, because, uh, your body is gonna be relearning that we lose our ability to really sweat well, like we used to when everybody was doing physical labor in the fields and everything.

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Yeah. So sometimes you have to help your body to relearn that. And then in relation to sleep, there's a whole thing of if you shift into cold, in other words, just take a quick cold shower. Mm. Or just a regular shower before you go to sleep. Sure. Of course you'll want to. That also sets up a whole pattern that will help you to sleep better.

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Okay. Okay. So in your experience around that hour or so Yes. Before bed, yes. Perfect. Yeah. Okay. And the 20 minutes? Um, 20

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minutes is fine. You can stay in longer. I know people that, uh, you know Yeah, I know. Knew a guy. He was a, um, a raw foodist and, uh, he took two one hour saunas in our sauna every day. Whoa.

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He was so dedicated. The guy was so healthy.

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Oh my

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gosh. And he'd swim out in the Pacific Ocean. Uh, he lived in the avenues here in San Francisco. Oh my gosh.

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Beautiful. Oof.

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Yeah. Wow.

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Okay. So, so it's not as if you're regulated to the 20 minutes, but 20 minutes is still gonna get you lots of benefits.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Okay. A a lot of the, uh, uh, big studies in sauna usage, there was a big study out of Finland looking at heart health. And, uh, it was a 20 year study with 2,500 men looking at, um. Sauna usage in the sweet spot for health. Overall health, and I think this would go for, because you want to be healthy, right?

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Yeah. It was four times a week, 20 minutes. Sauna and that was, that seemed to do well. Uh, 50% reduction in, uh, cardiac, uh, death, sudden cardiac death. And, uh, cardiovascular health was so that I, that I used that 20 minutes seems to be sufficient if you can get a right reduction. And it was 40% less, uh, all cause mortality, less chance of dying all.

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And that's cancer, diabe, you know, everything that kills us, not falling down the stairs that wasn't included.

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Yes. Exactly set. That's great. And I love that too, of the, just four times a week to even just as a, you know, benchmark or baseline is also one of the things we'll see. Is that so commonly, um, sometimes, certainly, of course, when people aren't sleeping or sleeping well, they're tired.

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Yeah. They're maybe cranky and they just, they wanna see. Uh, ships in their health and their, and their experience of life. Um, and sometimes they can get overwhelmed and throw the baby out with the bath water. So yeah, just having that as a goal I think is really fantastic.

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Yeah. And I don't know what you found.

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I found that when I exercise on those days and I like to walk a lot. Same, you know, and get my 10,000 steps in and I do kettlebells, things like that.

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Yes. A

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few times a week. So when I, you know, if I'm doing that, I'm sleeping better. The body needs to work itself out.

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Oh, that's great. Okay. And so the other thing we've seen, um, from different people that are, they're kind of like on the fence.

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They've heard just this amazing. Um, information around saunas. Mm-hmm. And then they're trying to figure out which one to go with. Sure. Um, so we had some questions around, uh, for ClearLight saunas. EMFs. Mm-hmm. Formaldehyde glues. Right, right. You know, all those fun details. What do we think about that?

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Yeah.

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Well, we were the first company, uh, we wanted to go to a certain flat panel carbon heater. This was many years ago. I. But those gave off a lot of EMF, so we pioneered low EMF heaters and patented that process. Wow. And it was really interesting because EMF would come off like a Hertz, you know, 50 or 60,000 times a second at the top.

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EMF is coming off at the bottom. EMF is coming off. So what we did is we took the two heaters and put one on top of the other. All right. So we made one heater out of two. So when one heater was kicking off EMF at the top. The other one was kicking EMF off at the bottom and it canceled out.

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Wow.

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Yeah. It was just so amazing.

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And then we found that that's wild. We could cancel the EMF in the wiring by just, uh, wrapping the wire onto itself. It had the same effect. And, uh, the halogen heaters, we, so that became, that really put us on the map early on.

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That's great. Oh my gosh. Many, many,

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many. Because again, being a chiropractor and being concerned about people's health, that's my number one goal when I wake up.

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How can I help people to heal?

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Mm. And

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so if you incrementally do that in the design and upgrading of your sauna, I. You will really end up with something that no one else can touch you. Because most companies are, well, how can I, how can I take some money out of that? You know? Yes. I'm selling these saunas and if I could take five bucks out, wow.

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Look, I could, you know, exactly. We're thinking in a different way. Mm.

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Well, I appreciate that. Um, and then how about for people that say, well, what about, what's it look like with the glues and Oh, yeah, yeah. All that stuff. We do all, we do

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all the, the testing, uh, uh, all the organic, you know, the VOC testing religiously, and, and we've got the test to show 'em.

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Oh. So, yeah. That's great. So

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people can rest assured, okay. Of course. Yeah. That's great.

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You have to do that.

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That's amazing. Okay. Um, let's see. Then we also have, um, people, uh, are curious about red light saunas. Hmm. Uh, yeah. Is that much better than someone said quote, plain hot sauna?

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Yeah. So we've been working with red light, uh, for quite a long time.

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Uh, red light and near infrared at six 60 and eight 80 nanometers. So they're very high powered LEDs that we put in, in a tower and that tower. Can sit in the sauna on the door. Did you get a red light with your

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Yes, I did. Okay. Which I was very grateful about that, so yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. And end assault and uh, yeah, essential oil.

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I mean, just incredible.

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So that, that was the other thing we did after we felt we got rid of the EMF and we got our sauna to a point that we were relatively happy with it, we're still doing upgrades. Then we turned to other things, halo therapy or salt therapy was one of them. And we, uh, designed and build our own halo therapy unit that uses little salt capsules.

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So you get micronized salt into your lungs and then the red light. We took a long time in developing that and it's. Just the best red light on the, we sell three different sizes, but we have it so you can mount it on the door of your sauna and while you're in the sauna. So I call this layering that we're layering these different therapeutic modalities and the aromatherapy so that when you have your 20 minutes, 'cause everybody's so busy now.

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Uh, yes. How can I optimize my health? And you don't have to get these things all at once. It can be added on and there's wiring and, uh, the, uh, the right, the correct, the receptacles to plug in all these devices. So that's, uh, that's been a, a lot of fun. And, and to see the results of that has been amazing.

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Hmm. That's incredible. Okay. So, uh, for those people considering they could. Look to the stacking options that you have created. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Like, why

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wouldn't you, why wouldn't you want Exactly.

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You're sitting, you're, you're having that time to relax and then have further relaxation. Exactly. Yeah. I love that.

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Yeah. Um, let's see. Any s about temperature? So some people mm-hmm. Um, they're curious about, uh, heat shock proteins and Yes. Yeah. The, the whole world of this

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Yeah. Yeah. The whole, the whole thing of HSPs and, and so. The one common misconception that people have, they'll go in the regular sauna, the box of hot rock saunas, and they're, and that is utilizes hot air.

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That's how it heats the body. You have to get the air up to 190, 200 degrees Fahrenheit and that's what heats you. That's the medium. But in infrared sauna, yes, we have heaters behind you to the sides in the front, even under the bench. Behind your legs, even in the floor. So the infrared wavelength is coming through the air and it doesn't really give up much of its power in the air till it comes and hits the skin penetrates deeply into the soft tissue, and that's how it heats you.

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So then it's HSPs and all this is all about heating the core. Hmm. And we've done unlimited amount of testing and uh, uh, third party testing that has been done in our saunas, uh, testing the, how we're heating the core up and, and we heat the core up just fine. 'cause we're kind of cutting the middleman out the air.

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We're not having to heat that air up. And so it's easier to breathe so you can stay in longer if you like. Sure, sure. You're using less electricity and the actual infrared wavelength is therapeutic. It gets toxins out of the body. Yeah. While it comes coming in an actual vibrate a water cell. That's where we were getting into choosing which wavelengths we wanted to put in there.

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But that's, that can go very deep down the rabbit hole. Yeah. In that. It was really to help detox and, and do all this. So it's a different animal, but you're gonna get the HSPs. I guess that's a long way to get back to HSPs. Sure. H shock proteins. Yeah. Okay.

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And is there for, like, for you, when you get into your sauna, um, is there a kind of magic, kind of golden, um, uh, number that you're shooting for, for temperature, or is it, does it range?

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No,

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no. I, I turn the sauna on. I'll let it heat up for, I don't know. You know, if I'm usually busy doing something, so it'll heat up for 40 minutes. Something like that. Yeah. You know, I'm still in the back of my mind. I want this really hot, you know? Yes. But it's funny, when I get in a, even at a lower temperature, I'll get, even when I get in, I'll get in the sauna and I'll go, oh, it's not much happening here.

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Just wait five minutes. That's all right. That's true. Try on your own sauna. Okay? And then in five minutes you go, oh my God, it, the air temperature got so much hotter in here. No. Yeah. The air temperature did not get hotter. You started pulling the infrared wavelengths, the heat started coming into you as a wavelength.

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Wow. Very cool. And then you have

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the, you have the sensation of being hotter. Okay.

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That's fantastic. Okay, so, so you have that clarity of um, you know, kind of expectations. Wait those, those five minutes and just you settle in 'cause you're gonna be experiencing that sweating. Yes. And you'll keep getting better at that ability to sweat as you use it more.

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Um, and then curious if you have any callouts around. The use of binders or other things to Yeah. Some people

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use that to, uh, there's different drinks and different, different things. Chalky substances that you can Yeah. To, to flush things out. I think that's all of the good, but you know, it's up to everybody to figure out.

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Uh. How they're gonna get out. Uh, there's some really interesting studies that were done up in, uh, university in, in Canada, BUS studies. Okay. So there's blood, urine, and sweat. Mm. And if you just put BUS studies, it will, it will come up. So they show after using sauna, what is, what do you have, what type of toxins do you have in your sweat?

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Yeah. What toxins are in your blood and in your urine. So it's very informative

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of how That's so interesting.

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We even expel toxins when you have to liberate the toxin first in the body and it will even go out in respiration.

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So, you know, that's interesting that you've pointed that there was just, um.

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There's some, uh, clips go kind of going viral on social of different, uh, callouts around and suggestions for people when in the sauna saying you have to, while you're in there, be kind of constantly patting your body to get rid of the sweat droplets. Do you agree with that? Is that overkill? I, I, I

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don't think that's really necessary.

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Uh, you know, well, and I, I, I use aloof sometimes, you know. Oh, sure. When I get in the sauna before I. Start sweating. 'cause I really want to get away any dead skin. It's a good point. Open up the pores. Good. And if somebody wants to pat themselves with a towel, good. Whatever. It's a little exercise. Yeah. Go for it.

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But

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you're, you're tapping into the parasympathetic response. You don't wanna stress yourself out with needing to.

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Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's really the watch word is to go and it's time for peace. Mm. For quiet, no cell phone, you know, none of all the things. It's, it's your time, so love that. Kind of funny.

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In the first time I got a sauna in, I went in with my wife. We were in that sauna together every day for a week. Ooh. Haven't, haven't been in the sauna with her since then. It's my time. Yeah. It's her time to be peaceful, to be quiet.

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I like that.

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And uh, and that's just how it is. You know, we need that. We really need that.

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For the people that like to do it in the morning, do you mm-hmm. See benefits for that and to have like, kinda that peaceful time to your day?

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Of course. Yeah. Okay. People and people will fall into one, or they'll do it in the morning and they'll do it in the late afternoon or, you know, it's a, has a lot to do with just their people's makeup and their schedule and what they have to do, what their, uh, you know, they got six kids that they.

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Yes,

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exactly.

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That kind of stuff.

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And we can imagine that they might still be able to benefit, have, um, benefits for their sleep, even if they're doing it of at those different times. Yes. Okay. Of course. Yeah. Great.

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Now how you're probably not as great, but yeah, right, right. 'cause then you're

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not getting that augmented kind of drop in body temperature thereafter.

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Drop the

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drop in. Yeah.

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Okay. Um, then we had another question. Uh, someone said, I run in the heat plus I do sauna after Can that deplete my electrolytes? And I'm actually curious your thoughts on that too. 'cause I, uh, we were chatting about, I'm here in Austin mm-hmm. At the moment, although I am exploring some California possibilities, but right now, now I'm, you know, I obsessively work outside usually except for recording.

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Mm-hmm. So I'm outside in the heat and I'm just like sweating, you know? Yeah. It's the whole thing. Yeah. So how do we balance that?

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Yeah, I think it's, it's a, it's a different action than when you're working out and sweating. Obviously they're related.

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Yep.

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Uh, actually getting in the sauna is an exercise.

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Mimetic.

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Yes.

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So it mimics, uh, a workout, not a big workout, more like walking, something like that. So. I think your underlying question is, can you overdo it? You know? Yeah. Or if you're sweating in the hot sun, is that the same as being in the sauna? I don't really think so.

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Yeah,

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because the sauna for me is also that time for your body to not be, you're more in sympathetic when you're working out.

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And I wanna get you into parasympathetic and, and do a passive thing. And it's also great. Uh, so many Ben Greenfield, he's a big, uh, advocate of ours. And it's great for after a workout to go in the sauna, relax and heal, you know, all the little tears, all the things in the body. It, it's great for rebuilding after a workout.

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Oh, that's great. Now I love that you said the, um, mimicking of a workout because Yeah. Sometimes then we'll have people that then say, oh, I was like loving the sauna, and then someone told me, oh, it's too stressful for my adrenals, or I'm a. You know? Yeah. Women going through perimenopause, like what you think there.

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You always have.

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So you always have to consult with your primary care physician and find a good one. You know, there's so many great medicine has changed so much in complimentary medicines. You can find someone and just check it out. You know, there are some contraindications. If you're pregnant, you probably shouldn't be saing, you know, if you have, uh, rheumatic diseases.

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Uh, some are helped, some are not so great. So always check with your physician before embarking on any course. That's different.

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Actually, to that point, I have a maybe funny question for you. Um, so we had someone on the podcast who's literally considering making a product. Um. To go along with saunas, sauna used, oh, quick used it for men.

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Uh, and so it would be okay. Oh, those

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guys.

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Those guys. And, and this part was even specific for men because this would be almost like a little ice pack for the genitals for, for. Does that

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increase fertility?

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So the thinking was that, um, you know how, so there are times where people will suggest if you are trying to have the baby right.

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For sper count.

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Right? Don't heat.

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Don't heat. Yeah. And so then the call has been like, put like an ice pack basically. I don't

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think that's really necessary. I, you could put a towel on, on the little guys. Okay. And, uh. And we're actually, there is another thing that, uh, people do with the red light and we've mounted it in the front.

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Is that Yes. Yes. Yeah, you use it and, uh, so you're going to, uh, get a growth hormone and, and lots of good things happen. So. Well,

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speaking of Ben Greenfield, he has famously shared about that. Yes. And testosterone. And

‍

testosterone, yeah. Right. Those

‍

measurable shifts. Mm-hmm. From utilizing light therapies. Uh, yes.

‍

And directed. On the channel. Yeah. Yeah. It's a

‍

whole, it's a whole cascade of HGH and then testosterone comes out of the whole thing. So that, that works really well. And I, yeah, I think all men, especially as we age, you know, we, we kind of need that.

‍

Oh, we kind of need that. Exactly. Yeah. We

‍

kind of need that, you know, we have so

‍

good, so much

‍

to deal with being a guy, you know, it's not as easy as it looks, it's it.

‍

No,

‍

exactly. Exactly. You've seen

‍

how we flail around, you know?

‍

So. So true. Um, okay, so, so for people that are on the fence, um, do you think, is there, are there any other major questions that, um, you see that come up a lot that could help support people if they're kind of like, oh sure. Do I take the leap?

‍

Well, so what you can do right now, there's all kinds of franchises. Sweat house. There's, uh, perspire. You can go try an infrared sauna, try it out, see what it's like.

‍

Yeah.

‍

And uh, so that's number one. See if you like it. See if it works for you. And, um, I think once you try it just one time. You'll be really sold.

‍

I mean, I, I just, it's amazing. Uh, when I used to do the home and garden shows, I'd get people in there and they go, wow, this really feels good. You know it. So it's an experiential thing. Don't go with the mind, go with your experience. The second thing is you have to figure out where am I gonna put this?

‍

Right.

‍

Right. Yeah. That's such a good point.

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For people that are in New York and little small walkups, we also have a dome that is, is very good and a dome and a heated mat. And we have a PEM mat, PEMF amethyst mat that you can use.

‍

Sure.

‍

And uh, maybe if. People don't have the space or they don't have the resources right now to get a, a full size huge sauna, that that's another avenue.

‍

My goal is I want everyone to have a sauna and have at least access to a sauna so they can get out the 80,000 chemicals that are in our bodies. Oh gosh. You know, or 80,000 chemicals that are in our environment. We don't have 80,000 chemicals in our body. Right.

‍

Hopefully, but who knows? It's getting bad.

‍

Yes. It took me all night. You know, so things like that. I think it's everybody's birthright to, to not have toxins in our body and to live healthily and, uh, yeah, have a good life.

‍

I love that and I love the passion and the commitment. I, I shared with you that I had heard you speak, um, on a panel years back.

‍

Uh, and that was one of the things I was struck by was just your commitment. It just was so obvious, uh, to people's health and wellbeing and your own vulnerability in sharing. I. Just your kind of life path and why this has made such a difference for you and

‍

Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate. Yeah, Mollie, I'm the luckiest guy in the world, you know, 'cause I found something where I could do something to help before I get off this spinning globe.

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And, uh, and it it, I used my talents that I had at the time and it's just been, I, you know, really it's a secret. It's, I get so much more. Ugh. You know, I just get so much more back. I don't, you know, it's, it's not a zero sum game. It makes me so happy to do this, so,

‍

oh,

‍

I'm, I'm, I'm the big winner, you know?

‍

No, I, I so relate to that and I, especially your story of kind of that period of, you know, your own.

‍

Um, yeah. Big moment in your life and how maybe in those moments it can feel. And so if anyone's listening, 'cause sometimes, you know when they're not sleeping well Yeah. They might be in their own journey like that. Um, but it sounds like for both of us, those rock bottom. Mm-hmm. So this challenging times ended up being the birthplace of just.

‍

Amazing things that we couldn't even have predicted. Um,

‍

exactly. Yeah. And it seemed like a horrible thing at the time. Or it was the lightning bolt on the road to Damascus, you know? And it stops us

‍

beautiful.

‍

And we go, huh, what? I wonder what I've gotta do now.

‍

Exactly,

‍

and that's not always easy.

‍

I love that.

‍

Um, I do have a question for you too, 'cause I love that you said you believe for, this is for everyone. Um, we do see a lot of kids now I don't deal with, um, you know, specifically kids in sleep. And at the same time we have a lot of parents and um, yeah. So any call outs about kids utilizing sauna? Yeah, bring them in.

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Bring them in. Bring them

‍

in. Yeah. And here's the thing, I used to say, well, let's wait until they're at least 10 and everything. Yeah. And then I went to Finland. Oh my gosh. Just like

‍

running, you know, ramp. The kids are

‍

in these super hot saunas. The thing is, don't make a kid stay in the sauna.

‍

Right. Bring

‍

them in.

‍

And let 'em lead. They are so smart about their bodies. When it's time for them to go, they'll go and keep 'em hydrated. Electrolytes, the whole thing, obviously. Yeah,

‍

yeah. No, I appreciate that. 'cause, you know, it's, it's concerning for me of seeing how many, um, kids now are struggling with. Sleep when melatonin levels should be through the roof, uh, when you're younger.

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Um, so just what we're seeing in A DHD correlations with that poor sleep and other, I mean, huge topics of course, but um, you know, so things that could be supportive, uh, like sauna. I think that's a great thing for the whole family potentially.

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Yeah. And we're an age, we live in an age of chronic stress.

‍

We're also stressed out. Yes. You know, everyone is, everyone is post-stress from COVID even. You know, traumatic and we're trying to recover from that. So anything you can do to offset it, and the infrared sauna is one big. Opposite of stress, it will just remove that a little wavelength at a time.

‍

Yeah. Oh, beautifully said.

‍

Okay. Well, so to that point, um, I'm excited to hear as someone like yourself who's clearly thought deeply about your own health wellbeing and your own sleep, we ask everyone four questions on how they're managing their sleep currently. Um, and our first one is, what is your nightly sleep routine looking like right now?

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Yeah. So, uh, normally I like to, uh, take a sauna before I go to sleep. Yeah. And then I'll take a shower after. That's kind of in my routine. I'm try some different, uh, of the natural, uh, gummies and see if I can help, you know, thing, things like that. Yeah. Um, I drink a little, what is it? A little chocolate ru that, uh, has no sugar in it.

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So I really amping every possibility to go into deep sleep. And then I'll read a little and uh, and usually I kind of just. Drift off and I've got, uh, different things. I've got my aura ring. Yes, I have, you know, all, all the thing. I bought a somn. Do you remember them? Yes. Don't, of course. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've got that by my bedside.

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And so I'm, I'm a little bit obsessive about, you know, how much re and how much deep and yes, and all that. And, uh, my wife just shakes her head. You know, and she sleeps like a baby all the time. So isn't that

‍

always how it works? Yeah,

‍

yeah. But, but I, again, I have noticed that, um, as I've gotten into this older age, uh, sleep is more challenging, obviously as we get older.

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Mm-hmm. So I'm doing everything I can. I use the. EC Z. Yes. Yeah. Um, and I've found, like I said, I found that that's helped me to prolong and get longer, rem longer deep.

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Oh, that's great.

‍

So that's, that's kind of my routine. And I, I normally sleep really well and the first thing I do when I wake up is I look and see, well, how did I do last night?

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You know? Yes,

‍

exactly. Yes.

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And I found that if I get enough deep and rim, it doesn't really matter how much light sleep I get. Mm-hmm. I don't know if you've found that.

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Oh, sure. If I get enough

‍

deep, I'm, I'm great.

‍

Yeah, absolutely. Um, a hundred percent. So the optimizing the sleep staging and sleep st. Is huge.

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Um, and of course, as we know, things like sauna, um, appear to be very supportive of that richness of that sleep to be able to, and to your point, if we really are leveraging and stacking those. Parasympathetic response to be able to train the brain, to be able to rest and digest more easily and get into those deep st uh, stages more often, um, that can be very beneficial.

‍

Not to mention to your point around, um, potentially kind of that light, uh, exercise, um mm-hmm. For respiratory based sleep disorders, which are mm-hmm. Absolutely rampant nowadays with. Um, sleep apnea, upper air resistance, syn syndrome, snoring, et cetera. Um, uh, things that can, now of course this can be multifaceted and multi-pronged and might take some time, but, um, if that can support metabolism and potentially correct some weight loss, even a small amount of weight loss can be really beneficial for people for that breathing, those breathing capabilities.

‍

Yes. So it's a lot there, so love that. Yeah.

‍

Yeah. There is a lot there and it's, uh, when you're in the groove, you know it.

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Yeah, exactly.

‍

You know, and it's a wonderful thing.

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Love that. So good. Um, okay, so, so for your nightly sleep routine, did we miss anything else or we got the just no,

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I, I think, I think that was pretty it.

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Yeah. Great. Pretty much it.

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Okay. Um, any call outs? Um, 'cause I know you said with all that travel, um, anything that you found for yourself when, um, traveling and you don't have as much access or control, um, are there things to bring in? Yeah,

‍

just. Just a, a jet lag is, is a really rough thing. Mm-hmm. You know, and I just, I have tried some different things, but nothing that's really worked.

‍

I try a thing called fly kit and uh, yeah. I'm always trying something. I'm, I'm the walking Guinea pig. I just love gadgets and trying things out and see what will make a difference. But I know if I'm gonna be on a plane and going to Asia. Um, yeah, I'm gonna lose some sleep and I, I just kind of go with it, you know.

‍

Okay. I got four hours last night and I'm walking around. I feel like a zombie. Yeah. But this too will pass.

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Yeah. Oh, beautiful. Yeah. The frame, the frame that we have for these things is so important. And even what you said too about as we age and shifts in our sleep quality. Mm-hmm. Um, for anyone also that might be listening and experiencing something similar.

‍

Um, one, uh, podcast episode that was really fascinating was we had a sleep anthropologist on the podcast who studied the Hudson Tribe in Africa. Oh wow. Among other really interesting, um, deep dives. And one of the things that he pointed to was, I. Um, this kind of theory around as we age, different roles that would be beneficial to the tribe.

‍

Mm-hmm. And the idea that as we age, maybe we're no longer gonna be the main frontline warriors. Yes. But we are sounding the alarm, uh, with our maybe a bit more fragmented or lighter sleep that might arise. Hmm. That we can Interesting. Be on the lookout for danger or what have you. Wow. And then awake, you know, have, ensure that everyone in the tribe is.

‍

Safe and taken care of. Um, how

‍

interesting. Yeah, I never heard of that. And I've, I've done, we did a safari in Kenya that was so interesting.

‍

Ooh. With, uh, very cool with the

‍

different warriors and Yeah. May go back soon, so love that.

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Oh, amazing. Yeah. He's gonna have, um, a, a book coming out very soon, I think it's called The Sleepless Ape.

‍

Wow. And it's about how, um, you know, from, uh, humans, how we have. Uh, you know, the difference in our rem versus other mammals. Mm-hmm. And, uh, just fascinating, interesting. Looks, so, huh. So we'll,

‍

we'll, we'll rename those awake times at 3:00 AM as elder hours. Exactly. Yes. Keeping watch. Thank

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you. Keeping us all safe.

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Love that. Exactly. That's great. But also, I love too, just, um. For people that are, because we're all gonna experience some of those nights where you got four hours or whatever. Yeah. Um, to know that we're not fragile. And one of the things that we see is when, um, people start fixating on, oh no, what's this mean?

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This, this insomnia. Right. Oh, it's worse, then it's worse. Yeah.

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And. Just, it's just part of life at this age.

‍

Exactly. So just acceptance. Yes. That's the whole game. Oh man. Yeah.

‍

Sometimes that's the best medicine.

‍

Exactly. Yeah. Um, okay, so your mornings, we ask what, um mm-hmm. Does your morning sleep routine, quote unquote, with the idea that how you start your day can impact your sleep?

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Sure. Um, my mornings usually I'll get up and I like to drink a glass of water. That's just, I, yes. You know, that seems to help. And then I, my morning routine is I do the Wim Hof breathing. Oh, nice. I'll do three, three rounds of, uh. That breathing. And I feel that really, uh, oxygenates me. You release a lot of carbon dioxide and that gets my mentally and physically, uh, set to go for the day.

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And I've been, a lot of times I just don't, I won't eat anything till noon. I. So I'm kind of an intermittent ca fa fasting. I will have a cup of decaf.

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Yeah, I get that.

‍

Yeah. And I don't know, I drank caffeinated coffee for so long. I think it, my, my body still thinks I'm bringing it caffeine, so don't tell it smart.

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I'm not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

‍

love that. And

‍

then I, you know, and then I'll, uh, look and see what the news of the day is and plan my day and, and then go for it. But that, it's very simple, but the breathing. Has made a huge difference. Wow. And um, so I also have a cold plunge that I use, and you have to be very careful not to do the breathing in the cold plunge.

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Mm. Just before.

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Before or at any time else. Some people have, uh, had bad results and I think someone even died. So don't do good call because, 'cause you can. Yeah.

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Yeah. Very good point. And how long do you do your breathing for? Is it like three

‍

rounds? Three rounds? Okay. Wim Hof breathing. So that's, uh, I

‍

see,

‍

you know, you breathe.

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I'll do like 35 or 40.

‍

Like that through the

‍

nose and out to the mouth, and then hold the breath out. And I'll usually hit two minutes or something. I hit three minutes one time, which really scared my wife. And then you, then you inhale for, uh, 15 seconds and exhale. So that's one round. Wow.

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And

‍

I'll usually do three, sometimes on a week.

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And I'll, I'll do 10 or something, or goodness, Wim actually does some, uh, online. Uh, you know, uh, offering training or offering seminar. Yeah. Training stuff. Yeah, sure. Okay. He's kind of a wild guy.

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Yes, he is. I know. Love it. That's amazing. Um, okay. And then, uh, you alluded to your nightstand, but what might we see on there?

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Oh, here. I, I can even take you. So, yes. Oh my God.

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Okay. This has been, so we're up on this. This is what I've been wanting is exactly this is it. Yay. Yeah. More people to do this. Okay. Okay. Alright,

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so this is the coming through the hallway.

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Okay.

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And then into the bedroom. There's a bathroom. And so I know this is, so this is my bed stand.

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Yeah.

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So that's

‍

my bedstand. You can see the somn on there.

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Oh, nice.

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And, uh, then I'll, I'll usually have some book that I'm reading and, uh, so it's pretty simple. And, uh, this is, so this is a sales call for Berkeley. See, this is why you should move out here.

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This is why I should move. It's so beautiful.

‍

Yeah.

‍

So anyway, that's nothing that special on my, uh, bedside stand. Um. Yeah,

‍

but you got the Somnia. So are you using the Somnia then every night, or what does that look like? The

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Somfy runs automatically.

‍

Mm-hmm. So

‍

it knows, and I know they were selling to consumers and then they just went, um, commercial with it, but I got in early, so I really love that.

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Amazing. And it's all non-contact and it, you know, it will tell me how I slit.

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Great. And I,

‍

I trust it. It's been very accurate. Interest. I wish, I wish I'd come out with the consumer again.

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Yeah. But

‍

you know, okay, well this is a stable world. I think. You a adopter. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

‍

That's great. I love that view.

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Very inspiring. You get the natural light in.

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Yeah, we open the windows and it's cool here at night. So it's uh, you know, good, good for sleeping. And then, uh, we have a little garden off the bedroom.

‍

Oh

‍

yeah, why not? Well,

‍

this is serving two roles now. It's underscoring my need to move to California. And there you go.

‍

Also giving us a nice tour. So thank you for that. That's beautiful. Um, okay. And then the last question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep? Or said another way? Aha. Moment. Biggest aha. Moment.

‍

I think that the biggest aha moment for me was not the sauna, 'cause that was something I was doing, but in the fine tuning of it, what I eat late at night has a big effect and, and exercise has a big effect.

‍

Yes. And I think those, you know, I had. Before, not really concentrated on it that much. Yeah. So right now I'm, I've been off sugar and that's helped a lot too, you know. Oh, great. And I would be the type of guy that mm-hmm. After dinner I get that sweet urge because mm-hmm. You, you know, everything is going down.

‍

Yes.

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And that's when your body's going, cravings start to occur. And I would give into that. And that's a horrible way to sleep.

‍

So.

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It just doesn't work. It doesn't work for me. And uh, so cutting that out and, uh, exercising at least walking 10,000 steps a day, even if I don't do the kettlebells on that day, or, you know.

‍

Oh, that's great. Yeah, I've been, um, joking that I like as a, um, kind of general workout routine, WW weights and walking, uh, so weights and

‍

walking, I like that. Weights and walking, so, you

‍

know, that's beautiful. I love that kind of setup. And then of course, even augmented. With the sauna as that, um, kind of simulating a bit of a Yes.

‍

Mild workout as well as you were speaking to, so you're getting all that together. Exactly. Well,

‍

there's a lot of people in, in geriatric, uh, you know, in, in rest homes and just people getting older like me, and so a lot of them can't exercise, you know? Right. Or one reason or another. So to get in the sauna.

‍

Your, your, your body says, oh, I'm exercising. You're getting your heart rate up to a working heart rate. All these things, you're opening up the blood vessels and what could be better. Yeah.

‍

Oh, that's amazing. Well, once again, thank you so much for just creating that, um, the multiple products, um, to support people's wellbeing.

‍

And so if people are listening and saying, I want to check out more of these, or I've been on the fence about a. Sauna or maybe, oh, I have a small space, so I wanna see what he's talking about with that dome and all of those things. And more PMF, um, how can they do that?

‍

So our website is, we were, since we were early adopter, we're www.infraredsaunawow.com.

‍

Great domain and uh,

‍

yeah, great domain name. So, um, and you will find a lot of infra, it's a very informative website about healing and different things, and you can do a deep dive in there. That would be a good place to start. Our, our main. We make saunas for many, many people that you wouldn't even know.

‍

Mm. Uh, all,

‍

all over the world. And it's private label saunas and things like that. Oh, interesting. But our, our brand is ClearLight. Yes. Um, which is actually a, a, it was actually a, a Buddhist term. That's how that came about. So that was many, many years ago.

‍

Oh. And,

‍

uh. Sort of the clear light of beans. So that's the inference of, uh, of, uh, the brand and, and what we've tried to put into every single sauna.

‍

And we do give, we're. Very, uh, unique in that we give a lifetime warranty on, uh, all saunas. So that was actually a

‍

deciding factor for a few, um, clients of mine that they were on the fence and that was what put them over the, to, to go with a clear light.

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And as I, I think it was about 15 or maybe 17 years ago when we did that.

‍

And I'll tell you, when you give a lifetime warranty, it informs you how you build your sauna. Mm.

‍

Yeah,

‍

because you're the company that's gonna be taking care of that for quite a long time, so you better put your very best forward in that.

‍

Oh, I love that commitment. That's very like Japanese of you or something.

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It's just we don't, it's something, yeah. We don't hear that level of craftsmanship.

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Yeah, it just feels good to do that. Mm-hmm. And we have wonderful relationships, uh, with, uh, all the people, all our suppliers, and it's just been, it's been just a tremendous journey for me.

‍

Mm. Well, I love that oozing of gratitude and, uh, commitment to excellence and commitment to supporting people and their wellbeing.

‍

Um, it's been evident to me, uh, since first meeting you and then my experience with the company has been nothing but a delight. I know I shared that before we even hit record. Um, so incredibly grateful. Um, my husband said the same thing, like he, he went in the sauna just recently and he was, oh, wow. What is, this is amazing.

‍

I'm gonna have to, um, fill 'em in on what we talked about of the other benefits with the red light and the strategic placement and all that. Right. Uh, but you know, so yeah, we're, we're wildly thankful. Um, and you know, I just know that in a society where so many people, as you pointed to, are dealing with chronic stressors, um, trouble with their sleep and more things that they can purchase and have a peace of mind for a lifetime, yes.

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That's gonna be supportive is a big deal.

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Yes, it is. Well, thanks for having me on. It was a lot of fun.

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Yes, thank you. I so appreciate it.

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