253: Chuck McGee III, Founder of Iced Viking Breathworks: Stop Sabotaging Your Nervous System

 Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman, and I am the founder of Sleep As A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.

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Each week I'll be interviewing world-class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health, and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.

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Welcome back to The Sleep As a Skill podcast. What if one of the most powerful tools for better sleep wasn't another supplement tracker or optimization hack, but instead something you're already doing around 20,000 times a day? Now, today's episode is all about breath, but not in the airy, abstract way.

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You've probably heard before our guest. Chuck McGee II cut straight through the wellness noise with practical, no-nonsense nervous system tools that actually work in real life. He's a breathwork instructor and ACT practitioner acceptance commitment therapy, a type one diabetic and a traumatic brain injury survivor.

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So this is in theory for him, it's lived experience. In this conversation, we explore how your posture, breathing patterns, and nervous system state are quietly shaping your sleep, your stress, and even how safe your body feels often before your mind has a say. Now, Chuck breaks down why shallow mouth breathing can keep you stuck in fight or flight at night.

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How extending your exhale can help your heart rate and HRV and why. Simple quote unquote, doesn't mean easy, but it does mean accessible. So if you've ever struggled with racing thoughts at bedtime, performance anxiety around sleep, or felt just generally overwhelmed by the endless list of biohacks, this episode is for you.

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And if you're already sleeping, quote unquote, fine. But once you level up your recovery, resilience, and regulation, this one's a must listen. So yes, I am literally sitting up a little straighter for this conversation and had to check my posture while delivering this intro. So take a breath and let's get into it first.

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I will also include this in the show notes as well. And welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast. I am sitting up straight for this interview and you'll understand why in just a moment. Chuck McGee the third, thank you for taking the time to be here. Thanks for having me. Good to be here. Oh yes. And I know this is our second go around because we had a tech issue on my end the first time.

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So I am the lucky recipient of hearing more of your information and I could not be more pleased. I hope this is okay for you. As I was sharing before we hit record, I had this sense that you so much wisdom with just about every other sentence you utter. So I'm so excited for the listeners to hear more today.

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No pressure, just wisdom with every other sentence. Yay. Let's see if I can do that. Let's, let's, let's go for it. Yeah, let's go. Game on. No pressure. No pressure. So, you know, let's just start at the beginning. How the heck did you find yourself such an expert in this arena of breath? How did this happen? Well, the, the fulcrum was cocaine, as with all good things.

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Um, thankfully I didn't have to take it. I was, I was bartending at the time and a customer came in and he would not leave until I looked up the Wim Hof method. Now, a little backstory, since I was 12, I've been in theater, so we get taught voice coaching and, and body movement at a very young age. And I just assumed everybody knew this stuff because everybody I knew knew this stuff.

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Sure. So it was that, that confirmation biased. And when he told me to look up the Wim Hof method, uh, because I'm a type one diabetic, and he said it help, uh, that opened the rabbit hole to combining those two worlds. I was like, wait, wait. I kind of know some of this stuff. Sure. And. It was, it was neat getting people drunk for almost a decade and a half.

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Yeah. But it's way more fun getting them high on their own breath. Oh, I love that. That is such a unique way of putting breath work. 'cause you know how we often hear it, just language is this down regulatory technique and, you know, heady, maybe heavy ways of looking at it. And I love this fresh kind of approach.

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So what, right out of the, um, out of the gate you found it to be applicable to your life and one of the struggles that you were dealing with and actually solving a problem and yet also seeing this kind of skillset that you had in the background that could marry itself to this arena. Absolutely. Well, when I was 18, uh, I had an amazing acting coach and she told me every breath, every emotion has its own breath.

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You don't have to, if you can't feel it for whatever reason, and you're on stage, breathe in the way you imagine that emotion being, and you can evoke it. And it took me 18 years till I was 36 to realize, holy crap, I can use that off stage. If every emotion has a breath, what emotion am I unconsciously breathing into right now?

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And for most people it's, it's a mouth breath that's very shallow, that looks really close to anxiety and stress. Their posture is compromised. And what's interesting is if I sit like this, hmm, slouched over, head over, everyone's like, wow, that's a bad day. But if I put this phone in my hand suddenly this awful posture is completely normalized.

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Wow. So true. So knowing that, you know, every emotion has a breath, well, what signal am I sinning my body? What is my posture telling my body how I'm feeling, even before my mind get gets involved? I've had over 20 concussions, so when people are like, you can master your mind, I'm like, maybe you, but my mind doesn't work that way.

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So I, I need to help with my posture and my breath that I can influence. So it just led me to keep diving down different rabbit holes here and there, and just being amazed at how simple these techniques are. But simple doesn't mean easy. Yeah. I mean, your sleep techniques are really accessible. Hmm. If you do them.

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So true. You gotta actually work that muscle. Yeah. Okay. And I'm so glad you married that too. Sleep and breathing. How are they connected? Why would, as a listener, if someone's tuning in in there, we've found that it seems to be kind of two different camps that seem to be tuning in. Either like something acute, where suddenly it's like, oh my gosh, I'm not sleeping.

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What is happening? Help. Mm-hmm. So that kind of panicked group, and if you're listening, I've been there and there is hope. And then on the other side, there seems to be more of the performance or wearable category. They're sleeping and yet they're looking for upleveling, taking their, you know, kind of performance to the next level, their HRB, their heart rate, et cetera, et cetera.

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Anyway, I know it's a wide spectrum, but for those people struggling with their sleep, how could breath serve as an important skillset? Every breath is a chance to reset. Mm-hmm. Before life takes a swing at you. Your breath is pushing your body one way or the other into how it's feeling. Your heart sends 60 times more information to the brain than the brain sends the heart.

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So your heart rate is directly indicative on how your body's feeling. Now for any of you out there who can just like think your heart rate's slower, you're my hero. Yeah. I can't do that. Yeah. But if I slow my breath down and I extend my exhale, my heart rate's gonna drop, my blood pressure's gonna go down because I'm holding a little more CO2.

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So the signal, my breath and my posture are sending my body are safety and relaxation. Hmm. That sound helpful for anyone looking to fall asleep and, and while some of you out there may be like, well, my mind goes crazy Uhhuh mine too. And Well, I can't be like, stop thinking of this stuff. 'cause it just keeps thinking of that stuff.

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Totally. What I can do is focus on a series of numbers. Um, you know, there's Dr. Viles anti-anxiety breath, uh, 4, 7, 8 in four hold, seven out eight. Andrew Huberman, doctor Andrew Huberman, um, champions the, the intentional sigh, the double inhale through the nose, out through the mouth to help relax and reset the nervous system.

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However, I would like to point out that while that may pump the brakes on whatever's bothering you, that doesn't remove whatever's bothering you. Mm. You still have to deal with the stimulus, yes, from a better place, but slowing it down, lowering the heart rate, stepping into that calm state, my body and breath are calm, my mind can catch up.

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And if I'm giving it something to focus on, uh, my favorite number is the Cognitive Reset Protocol. It's in for eight. Hold for five. Out for 12, hold for five. There's something about those numbers that just really speak to me. Hmm. And it's enough that my prefrontal cortex gets distracted, so I'm not worrying about, I'm just counting now.

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If you don't like counting, uh, Patrick Mccuen's, breathe light. Amazing. It's a nice soft way to go into it, but just paying attention to your breath slows it down by about 20%. Wow. Wait, remind me of the numbers that you like in particular in for eight. Hold for five, out for 12, hold for five mm. The goal is to be able to do all of that nasally, but if you can't hit a 12 second, exhale through the nose.

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Just push your lips like you're breathing through a straw and slow it down. Or on the inhale for that matter. But just slow. Keep the biomechanics going. Soft neck. Lateral expansion of the upper and lower ribs so you can get your diaphragm to move. And the reason breath is so intrinsically tied to sleep is the sympathetic and parasympathetic side of our nervous system.

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Mm. Sympathetic is go, go, go, fight, flight, freeze or fawn. And if your mouth breathing faster than you metabolically need breathing off more. CO2, your veins and arteries are constricting. Your heart rate and blood pressure are rising and your body's not resting. So you may be unconscious, but you're telling your body you need to be more aware because you might be in a dangerous place.

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There may be predators around, so you're sleeping kind of on the surface. And if you're doing that every day for maybe even a week, two weeks. Man a year, your emotional well is getting more depleted each and every night because you're not falling as deep into the parasympathetic state as you can, which is rest, relax, and regenerate.

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So your body's overstimulated. It's overdriven. The rest you may be having maybe long, but not fruitful. Mm. So by paying attention to your breath, how your body's supposed to be moving, extending your exhale, sleep can be leveled up. That anxiety can be managed or decreased. And I don't wanna sound like this will help everything, all the time.

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Sure. But it's something you can try. It's a tool to use. And you know, I'd like to say since breathing and paying attention to it and focusing on my biomechanics, my wife and I have not gotten in any arguments and my kids don't ever irritate me. I'd like to say that. Right. We would love that. It'd be a total lie.

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It'd be a total lie, but I'd like to say that. Yes, exactly. It's, I mean, that's why, you know, people are like, come balance your shockers with me. And they come out in a white robe and a breathy voice and it's like, I'm out. Yeah, exactly. It's just not real, not landing. I like functional tools and how slow I'm breathing.

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Yeah. I can control that or influence it depending. Am I tapping into my biomechanics? Im posture. I can influence that. Can I master my mind? No, but I can sail the seas that the storms, it sends my way. Mm. I, I can better navigate it. I can accept and, and move into it, but it's, it's not this magic panacea.

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Some people are trying to make it out to be. So I'm curious too, if someone comes to you and they've been struggling with sleep, how do you have them think about this as far as like a way to have it come in as an ongoing habit versus just, oh, they go to a breathwork class one time, or it's a nice idea, or they know they should, like, how do we actually weave it in to become like a part of their life?

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For real? One of my favorite statements is, please don't should all over yourself. Ah, there you go. That's good. But what I love about like neurology is your brain doesn't want optimum. It wants comfort and repetition and that's it. Yeah. So like you and I, if we're asking you to learn a new skill and we say new skill, brain, brain goes, Nope.

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Don't wanna, yeah. And all these roadblocks come up and I feel as an instructor slash coach, it's our job to help remove as many roadblocks as we can. Mm-hmm. So in the beginning, let's not start a brand new skill. Where can you integrate this in your life? That would almost be effortless When you wake up, can you check your breath, breathe in and out through the nose when you go to sleep especially, can you focus on that?

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Nice long exhale. Just the, the math you're looking for is you want an exhale that's one and a half times longer than your inhale. Hmm. So in four out six, in six out nine really extend that. Exhale. Your veins and arteries start to dilate. 'cause you're holding a little more CO2, your heart rate drops, your blood pressure drops just by paying attention to your breath.

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You're slowing it down 20% in and out through the nose. And does that feel good? Three or four or five times a day? This is gonna be silly when you use the restroom, when you send an email. Yeah. Um, I have a terrible memory due to multiple bunks to the brain. So I set alarms that go off on my phone five times a day.

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Mm. And it's Pavlovian. It, it works. The alarm goes off. I check my posture. I take five slow deep breaths. We've nicknamed this exercise. Stress venting. Try it. Mm. Um, so a biomechanical breath has way more parts than I would like it to have to, to be, yeah. Proper. And I don't like the word proper optimal. So you want your lips closed, but your teeth apart by about two millimeters, so that you're not clenching your jaw into the silent scream.

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Yay. Teeth clenching. Yeah. Um. Ears over shoulders. And if you're sitting, you want your knees at 90 degrees, your hips at 90 degrees, and your eyes parallel with the ground. And now you know why she was improper posture when we started. Exactly. The mystery solved. Because when I started this I was like, you know, hunched over to the screen.

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So that was beautiful. It happens, it happens to me. My son's got a picture of me mowing the lawn with my mouth open, just loving the a hundred degree heat that day. Oh. And he goes, dad, I'm gonna put it on the internet. I said, please do. I make mistakes too. It just reminds me to sit up now when I mow the lawn mouth closed.

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Mm-hmm. Proper posture, all because of a blackmailing picture. Perfect. Okay, so you're aiming for a lateral expansion of the lower and upper rib cage. Now that is going to be a 360 expansion at, its like peak optimal, but in the beginning you can just dig your thumbs into those lower ribs, middle back, not the the lowest one, but like number two.

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And when you breathe in, you're looking for a lateral expansion of these lower ribs. Instead of this vertical rise, you want your ribs working like bucket handles

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opening up and pushing those thumbs away like that. That's a great tool. Next, you put your, it's well and you can do it. And if you've got a partner, your kids have them place their hands on your lower ribs, so you get that feedback and just have 'em tap just a little bit and it's gonna be easier to hit that expansion.

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When that happens. Your diaphragm descends, um, more effectively. I, I'm with a lot of breath workers out there. They'll say, well. Take a diaphragmatic breath. Every breath is diaphragmatic. It has to be, take a more optimal diaphragmatic breath. Mm. Uh, for you doctors out there who are like, I, is he gonna say it?

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Yeah. So as the diaphragm descends, it massages your stomach. Large intestine, small intestine and liver. Each breath aids in digestion. If you're not breathing correctly, you're not digesting correctly. And if your gut health is impacted because of your respiratory habits, sleep is going to be directly affected because your nervous system is not functioning like it's meant to.

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So it's trying to compensate for this, this mild dysregulation. Wow. And over time it compounds. Absolutely. And what do you think too about, say if we're trying to get someone into the habit, 'cause I love what you shared too, about the five alarms or pairing it with when you wake up in the morning and emails, et cetera.

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Do you have any call outs on if someone's gonna pick like whatever, five minutes a day to begin? I'm not saying that that's any sort of means of the goal or what have you, but we're starting there. Is there a preference to sort of front loading it in the first part of the day or the end of the day? Or does that not matter?

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Those just details. The reason I ask is, I know you mentioned Andrew Huberman and a lot of people will talk about nons, sleep, deep rest protocols, and they'll talk about his suggestion to make this by day when you're not connected to sleep with the thinking that you're building your ability to switch into that gear of parasympathetic when you're not really thinking about sleep.

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And then hopefully the more you build that skillset you can draw on it at night. Do you kind of think of the same way with breath work or what do you see there? So I was given one of my favorite hacks for building a new habit by, uh, a coach named Colin Bai, and he calls it your MVP. What's your minimum viable practice to check that box?

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Hmm. So I'll work with you. What's your ideal practice? Let's set. Your peak goals. Sure. Okay. This is what you're aiming for eventually. Now we need to set your MVP. What can we set your minimum viable practice that will check the box that I did it today. I, I'd like you to do breath work in the morning to check that box early rather than letting it loom over you.

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Mm-hmm. And being this like, oh, I have to do it. Then you're not, that's not helpful. That's, that's still a mild stress you're carrying for no reason. Mm-hmm. And if you can just wake up and your MVP is, I'm paying attention to my breath for five breaths. When I wake up, I'm gonna give myself one minute. Can you do that five times a day?

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But doing it once my MVP is, is mine takes about 20 minutes because I've been working on this a little longer. Yeah. I want a little more, but in the beginning, five minutes a day is perfect. Five times throughout the day or, or even two something. And if you miss it. Give yourself some grace. Don't be like, you failure.

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Yeah. This was terrible. You meant to do this and now you didn't. Yeah. That's, that's not gonna help you rest. Mm-hmm. That's, that's going to be one of those other myriad of thoughts, keeping you awake. Mm-hmm. And then check the box. Okay. You didn't do it in the morning like you wanted. Do it now. Do it now.

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What else you gotta do? You're gonna sit there and listen to your brain. Nah, not me. Good. That's so good. Okay. Then that just made me think of a question that you might say, this is like a false binary or what have you. But it makes me think of, I have so many people that say, oh, I do not have time for the amount of like biohacks that are out there.

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So the red light stacking, the meditation, the hypnosis, the cold plunge, the sauna, the breath work, all of it. So I'm curious, and granted, I'm assuming you might be biased on this, but would you say that if someone was to take some sort of down regulation practice by day, that you could make an argument that breathwork would be one of the important ones to pluck from?

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Or is that just too much to ask? I am absolutely biased. Okay. Yeah. And the reason is, of all the things you have control over during the. What is the thing you do the most? Hmm. Ding, ding, ding. Breathing. And it's breathing. Yeah. So it's not eating, it's not drinking water. It's in fact breathing. Uh, I think the number is something like 20,000 breaths a day on average, which I think is too many people need to be slowing it down.

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But if you're doing something 20,000 times a day and you're like, I wanna optimize, let's start with a thing we do the most totally. And, and let's start with the thing that sends the signal to every other part of my body on how I'm supposed to be feeling. My, my posture is telling me I'm safe. My breath is telling me I'm safe.

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Then move on to do whatever other biohacking thing you want. A, an optimal breath is reliant on proper posture, and proper posture is reliant on an optimal breath. These are foundational and, and I don't mean to seem crass in being like, well, these are the things everything is based on. Yeah. But they're in fact the things everything is based on.

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Mm. And for those of you who are like, I don't think breathing is that important. Stop, stop, stop breathing right now. Just stop. Let's see how long that idea tracks before you go again. Yeah. Because that thing you said is not important. Absolutely. Is, uh, so true. Could you argue too, that, so if you're trying to blend these things potentially, that you almost have this meditative element when in breathwork, so you almost like combining two in one, potentially.

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Well, amongst everything you listed, cold plunges, saunas, uh um, red light, all of these things. During all of those things, you will be in fact breathing. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. So while you're in the sauna. Slow your breath down. Mm. Breathe into a parasympathetic leaning breath in four out six. It's nice and calm.

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You're dropping your aspirations to six per minute. Awesome. When you're in red light therapy, you're hopefully breathing, so let's just pay attention to that as well. Sit there and instead of scrolling on your phone, breathe nice and slow. Take that time for you if you're meditating, man, that's one of my favorite times to pay attention to my breath.

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Um, because I don't, people are like, you sit and clear your mind and I've tried for 20 years and I've only done that once. Exactly. So true. But, you know, I can breathe and focus on that and focus on the exhale, and I find, ah, I can do the Wim Hof method and that, that puts me in that meditative state.

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Fantastic. Let's do that. Mm. Um, so breath work, in fact can be meditation. So can walking, so can hiking, like it's okay. Step into these meditative states consciously, which is what we're supposed to be doing. And don't let someone tell you what your meditation's supposed to be. Mm. Look at the people working out in the gym.

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They're in flow and meditative state. They're in their happy zen place. Not mine, but theirs a hundred percent. It's so true. I'm curious too. So a lot of people that might be dealing with sleep issues might also kind of identify as anxious leaning, sometimes panic attacks, maybe really thinking about their breath in the times where it's really peak moments, they have to whatever, give it be in an interview, give a talk to those sort of moments.

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Any thoughts on how to think about those heightened periods where you feel like you can't actually access breath? One of my favorite quotes, and I forget where I heard it from, is anxiety is just excitement without the proper breath. Hmm. The same spot in your brain lights up whether you're excited or you're anxious.

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And I heard a state another quote yesterday. Um, intuition speaks in statements. Anxiety speaks in questions. Hmm. Am I gonna do well? Are they gonna like me? Are they gonna approve? You don't have any control over any of that. What, what can you control? So your mind might be spinning and if your posture is, is compromised and you're breathing in and out through your mouth.

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I, I've, this is gonna sound, you know what, I don't care. I, I call that the dark harmony. Hmm. Because everything you're doing is freaking your body out. Mm-hmm. In some small way. So, okay. I can't control my mind spinning, but I can stand up tall that tells my body I'm safe. I can slow my breath down in four out six.

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That's telling my body I'm safe. My mind might be spinning, but my posture and breath are trying their best to calm that down. It's two verse one. The heart rate slows down and if that doesn't work, if in four out six doesn't work. Okay. That tool didn't work right now. Can you hum on your exhale to extend it?

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Can you do 8, 5 12 5? Can you do the double inhale? Don't depend. On one tool. Uh, tool shuffling. How many tools can you use to achieve the goal you're looking for? And just start stacking them. So now it's not like, oh, that one didn't work next. Yeah. And now you're not worried about are you gonna give the speech?

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Right. You're going through your mind, going through all the tools, you know, to help calm you down. And look what happens eventually. Mm-hmm. You'll get calmed down and No, I I Not every time there's going to be times where you're like, nothing. Work. Yeah. Oh God, you just go out. Okay. I'm sorry that happened.

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That's life. You're human. You can do everything right and still not nail it like you want. Yeah. And so what do you do? My goal isn't necessarily to be in any given state, but to remain psychologically flexible. Using my breath as often as I can be. Mm. So, okay. I'm anxious. I'm anxious. This is what I'm anxious about.

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I'm gonna not avoid it. I'm gonna sit tall. I'm gonna breathe nice and slow and I'm gonna calm my heart rate down. 'cause that's going a little quick. Am I too calm? Am I too relaxed? Do I need a little more energy? Well, I know if I mouth breathe consciously, I can raise my heart rate, give myself a little energy.

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Okay? You see sports teams do this all the time. Everyone's like, yeah, let's get pumped together. And they all get pumped together, and they go out with that massive energy that is a conscious choice to bring up the energy rather than the unconscious breath that you may not realize you're falling into.

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Mm. So it's not so much, this is bad and this is good. It's conscious versus unconscious. How are you unconsciously breathing that is unconsciously affecting you into a state that's most likely mirroring anxiety and stress. Mm-hmm. Now what can I consciously do to move against that? And it, it's not, there's no one thing.

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Yeah. If I say this one thing will help you and then it doesn't, now you're mad at me. Right. So try in four, out six, try 4, 7, 8, try 8, 5, 12, 5. Just try extending your exhale. Pay attention to your breath. How many things can you practice doing that help achieve the state you want? Hmm. And, and this is why I love how many tools and tips you give people to help sleep.

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Hmm. Don't try focusing on one thing. 'cause if that doesn't work, you're gonna get mad. Yes, exactly. Shift that focus and then now, instead of thinking of that anxiety, you get all of these tools to try and practice and, you know, I love quotes and, and please don't learn how to fight while you're in one. You have to practice this stuff before you need it.

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Yeah. So that when you need it, you're good at it. That's so true. So true. I think sometimes people might think like, oh, well breath work looks a particular way. Like, I'm by myself, like, you know, I'm, I'm really in this calm situation. There's maybe music, it's a whole thing. But then when the, they're in their interview and the, they get this scary question or whatever, like, how to be able to do that without this thinking that it's attached to looking a particular way or that people mm-hmm.

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Will notice that they're doing something weird with this. Oh, now I'm thinking about 4, 5, 8, or whatever. Uh, or 4, 7, 8. Any thoughts on that call out of the concern? Well, what's funny when you say that is, is a lot of people think breath work is like 20, 30 minutes of your time. Yes. Listening to calming, serene music, having an emotional experience.

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Breath work is one conscious breath. Mm. That's it. Love it. Breath work is one you, you have dialed into your breath, you're paying attention to it. You have just achieved breath. Ah. Done. I mean, now if you'd like all that extra stuff, man, go for it. That's not usually where life hits me. Mm. Is in that space I have control over.

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But in that controlled space, do what you wanna do. Do whatever breath work protocol you want to do. Let it have whatever effect on you. It's gonna have that day. 'cause it's never gonna be the same thing twice. But for the real world applications, you're gonna have to practice in real time. Mm-hmm. Can you bring a little awareness to your breath and just breathe in and out through your nose?

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What's really gonna, yeah, I'm gonna say it. What's really gonna blow some people's minds is you probably don't even talk correctly. Hmm. Yeah, people are like, I'm a nasal breather. And then they start talking and they start taking these short gaspy breath in and midway through an interview, they've been breathing short and shallow and talking, and they're all the way up here and they're really anxious.

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And I'm like, right, that nasal breathing just went out the door in the place you need the most. Hmm. So play a game with your partner, talk to them, and when they finish a sentence, can you breathe in through your nose before you reply? That's a natural pause that looks like you're thinking about it. So if I'm in an interview and someone asks me a question and I go right at it, I don't know.

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I may not be saying the right thing. Now some people are like, I'm actually thinking about it. I'm not. I'm just using that breath in to make it, you know, look like I'm thinking about what you're saying. Mm-hmm. So you ask me a question and I go. Well, this is how I'd approach that. And as I'm talking, I'm staying calm.

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My posture is correct because that's what I can control in an interview. And when I'm finished relaying my point, instead of taking that mouth breath, I take a nasal breath in to slow the conversation down. And I keep talking by speaking and breathing in that manner. I am keeping myself regulated in a conversation that is high stakes.

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Mm. I'm not letting my breath run away with me. I'm not letting my heart rate start to pick up, even though it may be because this is, this is meaningful right here. Yeah, but what can I control? I can't control your questions. I can't control how fast you ask them, but I can control how I answer them. And I can control how I speak while I do that, and while my brain may be spinning again, my breath and posture are doing their best to keep the system regulated.

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Wow. That is interesting. I don't know why I keep bringing him back, Andrew Huberman, but he just had a communications expert on speaking to this idea of even if you don't have the other person to be asking the questions and you're just giving a talk or something, and it's all your cadence that you're running, he made this point to land each freight, like each sentence, and then you get to steal a little bit of breath is what I heard.

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Uh mm-hmm. That's something you kind of tend to think in the same way, or is it just more automatic over time? Well, think about that person who's just talking at you and they're going rifle speed. There's no hesitation. Your brain tunes out. Yeah. But if I want someone to listen. I take that breath. 'cause speech and communication, they're like, find a place to pause.

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Well, a natural place to pause is when you have to breathe in and it creates that pause, it creates that distance so that you stay engaged. It gives your brain just a moment to process the information I just laid down. It gives me a reason to keep my cadence nice and measured rather than allowing it to gradually increase bit by bit.

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Should I be mouth breathing during a presentation? If I'm standing at a podium, I'm probably gonna make sure I'm in the best posture I can be. Mm-hmm. I'm going to be as open as I can because that's going to be the most effective for me to deliver whatever information I'm delivering. And that cadence of finding that nasal breath gives everyone a break.

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Mm. Um, and, and I've been practicing this. For five years, like intentionally. Mm-hmm. And I still catch myself mouth breathing when I speak because I practice it for 41 doing it the other way. Right. I appreciate that, that even, you know, the experts are still building that muscle. So that's really, really helpful and I appreciate what you're speaking to with some of these high stakes moments because one of the things that we see for people is often really dealing with anticipatory anxiety being a big cause of stretches of insomnia or periods where now they're just not sleeping and then they're even more stressed out because now they didn't sleep and now they've got the big moments and just it's occurring as a snowball.

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So what I'm hearing, or what I think could be potentially extracted is for those moments, instead of just feeling like you're at a loss of what to do for that big moment that's on your calendar. That we can practice these things and not make them some huge fancy pants situation, really down and dirty on the ground when you're talking to your spouse and they're annoying you when you're sending the email that you don't wanna send all this, these moments that we can start to thread this into a lifestyle.

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Yes. Those moments are gonna happen whether you like them or not. Yes. Yes. I, I tell people to avoid setting a dead man's goal. Okay. And a dead man's goal is I will never be angry again. Ah, there is only one way that happens. And you'll be dead. Yes. Nothing, nothing will ever make me anxious again. Mm. Okay.

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That's not a thing that can happen unless you're dead. Um, you know, I will, I will never have insomnia. I have found the right tool. That means when you do, you're gonna feel extra worse about it because of what you've just set inside your head. An unreachable. Unreachable, yep. We're going with that one. An unreachable, unreachable, untenable goal.

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Yes. So don't set a dead man's goal. It's an if then if I start to feel anxious, then I will try these things. When I start to feel anxious, then I will try these things. I'm not hoping for it, but I'm ready for it. Mm-hmm. This is what I can do and, and I like to tell my clients, I, I don't ever hold you responsible for that first thought, that first impulsive, intrusive thought.

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I don't hold you responsible for that. I don't feel one can master their own mind in that aspect to avoid those thoughts that come forward. Or the Ooh, squirrels that you get all day. Yes. But I do hold you accountable for the second one and how you respond to the first oof. Now that I said every other practice is wisdom and that is a good one.

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Yeah, because one of the things that we see. Where people often with sleep and I've been there as well, is turning sleep into a performance. Mm-hmm. And kind of having this performance anxiety across the board. And one of the things I hear for you sharing is just feels like maybe one of the most important skills that we could ever master is how to respond versus react.

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Yes. But at the same time, to your point of so wise, to not make ourselves, because we're gonna keep having the most ridiculous thoughts. 'cause that's what the brain is designed to do. Yay. But I lo Exactly. But I love what you're saying there to then still in the face of that, bring in that personal accountability or responsibility and power.

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And that feels really empowering to have that option with the next few thoughts or respond. Say that out loud. So like, if you're in a great mood, man, trust your intuition. Maybe. Yeah. But intuition speaks in declarative statements. We're gonna do this. Hell yeah, we are. Yeah. And, and you're, you're going great.

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But I wouldn't trust your mind if you're not in a good mood. So true. And so all of you out there, think about your dreams, the ones you have while you're asleep. They make sense until you start talking about them. Mm-hmm. You start giving word to those dreams and you're like, I was in Miami, California.

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Nope. That's not a thing. That could be, but it made sense while it was happening. Yeah. So those thoughts, those anxious thoughts, say them out loud, write them down, put them through the filter of language. I could, you know, people who haven't, I'm, I'll never sleep again. Well say that out loud. That a true thing.

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Ugh. So good. I love that you called on language too. 'cause we see that all the time, that when we start exposing the language of what's going on in our heads, half the time it is just preposterous, crazy stuff. But it feels so real when it's in there. So unlock it. Your brain doesn't have a filter. Yeah. And that aspect, you're having that thought and you know, I trust my intuition when I'm in a good mood, so it must be helping me now.

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Nope. That is a false equivalency. Yeah. That's your brain. Your brain is, your brain is doing the brain thing and you're like, I'll never sleep again. This is gonna last forever. Yeah. Oh, that's not a thing. I mean, I might not get, so it's true. You might not get to sleep when you want. Mm-hmm. And you might be awake later than you want today.

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And it, it'll probably impact you tomorrow. Yeah. But that's not forever. So these are soothing words to the nervous system for those that are dealing with these acute periods of time. For sure. And even if someone's listening, they're like, well, I've never dealt with insomnia. I just wanna improve my HRV, even for that person, these same exact rules, or apply.

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Very much so, yeah. And we still see with HRV, if someone is just sort of in a slump, if they are not fulfilled in their life, if they are not in relationships that they're inspired by, et cetera, et cetera, like so many aspects can show up to your point around you still gotta do the work to support your life, to look the way you want it to look.

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But at the same time, you know, we've had different experts on the podcast talking to, oh, okay, you wanna improve your HRV? What's the most direct and immediate way to do that? Often, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but many of them pointed to your breath and is that resonate? Breathing? Yeah. Right. Yeah.

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The foundational. You know, biomechanical breath, relaxed jaw, tongue to the roof of the mouth, neck, relaxed, lateral expansion of the lower and upper rib cage with optimal posture. Um, that's neat, but that's, that can help your HRV. But the best breath so far that I've, I haven't discovered it, but that has been exposed to me, is resonant or coherent breathing.

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Breathing in and out for the same amount of time. Five and a half. In, five and a half out your time can be anywhere between four and a half and eight seconds on that thing. Everybody's different. So I, I can't say this is the time 'cause it might be different for you and that's okay. Right? Just breathe in and out at the same amount of time.

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Practice this five minutes a day. Three times a day and within a few months you're, or probably sooner, but within a few months you'll see a pretty big jump in HRV and that's the best breath work I know of For that, you want to improve cardiovascular elasticity and hematocrit. Let's talk about the Wim Hof method.

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That's also gonna help your CO2 threshold, which is going to decrease your unconscious respiration per minute. Fantastic. You really wanna work your CO2 threshold. Patrick McEwen and KO's breathe light super win. You don't like the kind of feel into it, you want structure. Well, let's do free diving, CO2 tables.

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If you give me a direct goal, there are breathworks to help you reach that goal. But before we start looking for goals, let's make sure your body's moving and in a way that'll make those goals easier and more productive to attain. So good. And would you add to the laundry list of possible goals, like we recently had Patrick McEwen on the podcast, which is great, and I, I know you guys have been connected right?

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For quite some time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he was speaking particularly on that episode to breath for sleep apnea and upper air resistance syndrome. Thoughts on those topics for your approach or thinking there? Proper tongue posture. Yeah. Helps pull the tongue outta your airway. Going to a myofunctional therapist will help strengthen your tongue and airway.

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Yeah. Getting a pillow that doesn't arch your neck and com arch your chin down so that your air sleeping on your side. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of debate about should I tape my mouth shut at night? If you don't have TMJ and, and you can, or like a deviated septum, that will completely stop you from breathing.

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Through your nose at night. Yeah, I'm for it. Yeah. Tape your mouth shut. But if, if this is your first time doing it, tape your mouth shut an hour or two before you go to sleep to make sure you can comfortably nasal breathe. Mm. If your CO2 threshold is so low, that nasal breathing spikes that fear response, maybe we do some exercises.

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Raise that, or, you know, reduce your sensitivity to carbon dioxide so that you can sleep with your mouth tape shut. Mm-hmm. And, and what's crazy is I've heard it, some doctors say, well, what happens if they throw up while they sleep? And if you stealth vomit, there are way more problems we're dealing with than mouth tape.

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Yeah. Like if stealth vomiting is an issue for you, that's fine. Like, I'm claustrophobic get mariota that, that Patrick McEwen has. Sure. It just sits around your lips and they're like, well, what if people are drunk or on heroin typically. Not that mouth taping crowd. Yeah, exactly. So thank you for your concern.

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Not worried about those folks. Yeah, I completely agree. The fortitude to remember that during your next heroin high. Yeah. I mean, seriously. Well done. I'm lucky, well done to remember it. Like, you know, if I'm traveling or something, like let alone that Right Louis, like, I have trouble sober. If you remember this plastered like.

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My hat's off to you. Well done. Exactly. Exactly. Wow. And like if you stealth vomit, get that checked out. Like you should, you should go see someone. Well, what happens if you throw up in your sleep? That's happened to me. Never. I usually wake up before that. Maybe a second or two before. But it's happened.

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Yeah, it happens. Well, speaking of kind of what feels like maybe more uncontrollable or kind of these great mysteries of the universe yawning. We had, uh, one kind of breathwork expert speaking to potentially ways that yawning could be a value. It was just something I'd read about. So we hadn't put on the podcast.

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So I'm curious, your take on yawning, if there's any utility there. Don't fight it. Just talking about it. You're making me do it. I didn't know I needed to. How freaking cool is that? I like Patrick Mccuen's take on yawning. Okay. And it's, don't resist the yawn. But you are offgassing a bit more CO2. And if you wanna bring that back into your system after you yawn luxuriate in that yes stretch move, do what you need to do and then hold your breath for 10 or 15 seconds before you take your next breath.

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Okay. Restack that CO2 in your body. Oh, that's interesting. 'cause yeah, this article I was hearing, they were like, oh, you know, you see the animals in nature when they really like cats or whatever and they stretched and you know, backbend. And it was this thinking that we could lean into it to further step into a parasympathetic response.

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And Absolutely. What I'm hearing you say too is then you're mindful of those ratios thereafter. Mm-hmm. A sympathetic breath generally favors the inhale. Mm. A parasympathetic breath generally favors the exhale. So if you take that yawn and you just extend the exhale a little bit and you hold. You're gently leaning into a parasympathetic state, and from my understanding, realizing I'm not a doctor.

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Yeah, I understand. I'm just a theater guy, bartender, who fell into this. Yes. We move in and out between sympathetic and parasympathetic all day. It's a dance, it's a balance generally due to people's stress and and mouth breathing. They're kind of pegged too far into sympathetic, and they can fall into sympathetic overdrive, mouth breathing when they sleep, mouth breathing all day long, compromised posture.

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Their body is not moving as deep into parasympathetic as it can. So by paying attention to that yawn, which we're all gonna do, just hold your breath afterwards, relaxed. Oh, and wait for the ins, the, that, that, that spark of I need to breathe to find you and then keep it calm. Congratulations. You've just done breath work.

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Mm. You slowed your breath down and, and step one. And I, I, I'm gonna cite back to Patrick 'cause he, he really got a lot of beautiful wisdom. Yeah. Step one is, you can't hear me breathe. Step two is I can't hear myself breathe. It's nice and quiet and soft. And three is an ideal and it makes me mad that I'm not in three as much as I'd like.

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You can't see me breathe. I'm breathing so soft and slow. That's his breathe. Light to breathe, right? Yes. Okay. Got it. Well, the breathe light to breathe right is a, is an exercise you can do okay. Where you're creating a teaspoon of air hunger within the body. So we can all do that. We just take a gentle breath in through the nose, go to neutral and wait for that urge to breathe to find you.

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Instead of completely satisfying that urge to breathe on an inhale, stop right before satisfaction and stay in that state for about 10 or 15 minutes. And while you are cultivating this mild stress or discomfort, this teaspoon of air hunger, your whole body is relaxed around it. So if you're anxious, you are now doing an exercise that helps you cultivate a mild anxiety and relax around it.

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Guess where that's gonna pay dividends? If you have asthma attacks or anxiety attacks or, or panic attacks, you're practicing what it, like, what it feels like to feel breathlessness, to feel that stress. And what are you telling your neurology to do when you feel that stress, but to relax. Mm. It's the same concept with an ice bath.

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I was just thinking about that. Every time, every time you get in mm-hmm. I, I've been taking 'em for 12 years now, and that's still Ah, yeah. And, and then you relax the body. You slow the breath down. And that leads me to figurative ice baths. That interview, that pitch to a company, that lady at the store paying in coins, talking about her week while I'm in a rush.

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That is a figurative ice bath. Can I slow down or going to bed? Is that your figurative ice bath? Is that where you feel the stress? Yeah. And what do we do when we feel stress is if we've practiced the ice or if we've practiced breathe light? Well, we acknowledge that that stress is there. Hmm. What? Can I relax around it?

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Can I slow my breath down? Hmm? Can I relax my breath? Can I relax my body, my jaw open my hands. And for all of you out there, I'm gonna show you my favorite exercise to show you just how fast your body adapts. I want you to make fists move forward a little bit, clench your teeth, clench your shoulders, and try and take a nice, big, deep breath in through the nose.

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Mm-hmm. You can't. So if you're laying in bed. Spanking tension, you're not gonna be able to do it. So, okay, like as perfect example. Move those shoulders, open your hands, intentionally open them. Close your lips, but don't let your teeth touch. How much tension can you bring into the body without closing your hands?

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Clenching your jars, squeezing your feet. Bring it in. I'll wait. Mm-hmm. Not a lot. Now take that big lateral deep breath. I can access it if I don't give that tension a spot. So quite literally, this looks silly, but if I'm tense, I, I'll say I surrender and I open my hands and I relax my jaw so that I can't squeeze into that.

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I can't take a deep breath. It's going to be shallow, it's going to be upsetting. Hmm. So now there's that dark harmony again, body. Brain posture, breath. Ah yes. The dark harmony. It makes me think of the famous Amy Cuddy Ted talk with the kind of like victory posing or you know, fake it till you become it.

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Power. Do it. Do it. It's amazing. That is her power pose is proper posture with hands on hips. Do it. Okay. And if you'll look most every single military in the world mm-hmm. When their troops are at ease, they are in her power posture pose. Interesting ribcage. Open chest, chest, open body stack, the way it should be.

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Mm-hmm. I don't know if they're doing it for that reason, but do it. And that's not faking it. That's relying on how the machine works. Mm-hmm. You know, key goes in car, push down, gas pedal, cargo. I don't need you to understand an internal combustion engine. That's how the machine works. Yeah. So stand in a proper posture.

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You're telling your body you're safe. Breathe. Biomechanically. Correct. You're telling your body you're safe, your brain is a bastard and will do what your brain is going to do. Yes, but my posture and my my breath are reinforcing that it's okay. So, so I start to harmonize with those things. My brain will eventually catch up or it won't, I, I can't stop those intrusive thoughts, but I can choose how I respond to it.

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Mm. What am I gonna do when I feel that I'm gonna stand tall? I'm gonna smile. I'm not gonna clench my teeth. I'm gonna open my hands and buckle up the scissor ride. Okay. All right. My next height, I can relax my neck. Whew. Alright. I'm a little deeper down this anxiety hole than I was last time. I like the view, what do I need to do to get out of this?

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Ah, so good. Slow down, relax jaw. All right, relax shoulders. This is what I can do for me. Chew gum. Chewings, a parasympathetic act, chew gum. Oh, like not while you're going to bed. Probably is a good idea. Probably. Yeah. Um, but what tool can you have access to? What tool do you remember? People often ask me, what's the best breath work for X, y, z scenario?

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And the answer's always the same. Whatever one you happen to remember at the time. Ah, so true. So good. Oh my goodness. There's so much wisdom here. And I guess I am thinking since we do dive in with every expert into how you're managing your own sleep, I'm so curious to get there. But before we do, I know there is a huge topic.

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So is there anything that you think we left out as it relates to breath and sleep before we shift to how you're sleeping? So all of those protocols you've heard about, there's, there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them. If they make you feel good, awesome. Yeah. But that's more the icing and the treat focus on.

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Your foundation focus on getting proper biomechanics. I, I cannot stress enough how important that's going to be. Those protocols may take an hour a day if you're going for a super long one, or maybe even just 20 minutes. But what are you doing for the other 23 hours and 40 minutes of the day? Yes. And I still think of you every time I might be walking and on my phone and I'm like, oh, I gotta do that trick that Chuck talks about where you hold your arm, right?

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Yes, exactly. And make it almost like a tripod. Right? Yeah. And, and support it and, and find reasons that are almost effortless to just check in on your breath. Okay? And if you're motivated to do protocols, fantastic. Mm-hmm. Give yourself the grace. Find your MVP, your minimum viable practice, and then do it.

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Build that habit, flex that muscle. Start small minute a day, one breath, one breath. And then it's gonna make you feel not necessarily better or worse, but you'll feel. Lean into that. I love that. One of the things I noticed, even just in interactions with you and, and this conversation, what have you, is like the unabashed ness in taking a breath.

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Like I see how, and for myself and for others, a tendency to like, oh, I can't possibly take the time to take a luxurious breath right now. And it's like one, when you do it, it reminds me to do it. And like, so it's, it's actually a gift when you take that time. And I think I've been thinking of it wrong, like, oh, I can't waste this person's time with my breath.

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Like, you know, how, how student, you know, just a, it's a crazy backwards logic. Whereas as my experience of watching you take that time, it's as the, you know, recipient of that conversation. It's like, it is really beneficial for me so that we could all take that on potentially. For all of you leaders out there, the calmest person in the room is the defacto leader in times of crisis.

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Wanna know how to be that person. You keep your breath and your posture measured. Not only is it luxurious for you, but it informs your team. They can do it too. So if you want to be seen as an expert in your field and a leader in the room, as Dr. Cudi said, you fake it

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and people's nervous systems will respond to the the message you're sending them. They'll feel better around you. They'll feel calmer around you. They'll neurologically mirror your behavior. It's just a nice way to move through the world. That is beautiful. Wow. Okay. So powerful and just. The opportunity, as you mentioned, of just out of all the things that we do every single day, a few things are as rich and plentiful as breathing.

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So we have such, uh, opportunities to really strengthen the skillset. So, so appreciate your, on the ground, down in dirty ways of bringing in instead of this lofty someday maybe venture. So, so cool. And speaking of down and dirty, how it looks for you, I'm so curious what the latest is on the management of your sleep.

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So our first question is always, what is your nightly sleep routine looking like right now? About two hours before bed, uh, I take a cold plunge. There's a lots of, lots of people who say, you know, do your cold plunge in the morning. Yeah, I like mine at night. For me. Love it. I, I like mine at night, about two hours before bed.

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I'll do cold exposure, whether that's a cold shower or an ice bath for me, hopefully it's an ice bath, because I don't like cold showers. I like ice baths more. Exactly. Yeah. Cold showers are rough. Mm-hmm. Um, and if I don't take an ice bath, I have to take a cold shower because that's part of my routine.

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Love it. Um, as I'm going to bed, uh, my wife and I mouth tape, it's totally sexy, you know, both taping, we love you as, as our mouths are taped shut. And so what I'll do is I'll make sure, you know, I've, I've had shoulder surgery, so I can't, I, I have to find a comfortable spot whether it's, you know, I usually sleep on my left side with a pillow to keep my shoulder up.

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And rather than worry about how is my sleep going to be tonight, I change the subject in my brain and say, okay, let's slow down. Hmm. I love that. And then after slow down, kind of quiet down, can I breathe so slow that I can't hear it? Can I extend the exhale so long? I don't wanna, I don't wanna have to feel that urge to breathe, but I wanna just extend the exhale.

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So it goes from

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to here.

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And I let my awareness just tumble through my body. I relax what? I can relax. I open the jaw. I, I do these micro adjustments and I don't worry so much about am I gonna fall asleep, but how soft and light can I make my breath and I'm gone. And I'll drift off without worrying about, I mean, I did suffer insomnia.

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Being 16 years working at the bar, going to bed at 6:00 AM does not help when finding a naturally easy way to fall asleep. Totally. Um, I depended on, on, on weed and booze for a long time, and now I don't have to do that. I don't worry about how am I gonna fall asleep? How soft can I breathe? Sleep will be a natural byproduct.

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Yes, I love that. And, and by, by focusing on what I can control, which is my breath and, and relaxing, and each exhale I relax a little more, and eventually I relax so much that the exercise has achieved itself and they fall. I fall asleep, and when I get up in the morning, sometimes the mouth tape is off.

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That's okay. So I found it on the back of my head before, not as helpful there as you'd think. Yes, same. And I give myself a little grace that Okay. Sometime in the night I took it off. I've worked with clients that they only had to mouth tape for two weeks and they never have to mouth tape again. And I'm really thankful for them.

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I'm grateful that after five years I have to keep mouth taping while you don't. I hope you're like that. I really do. No anger on my side at all that you don't have to do that anymore. Yes. And for anyone that doesn't watch the video version of this, we got a great physical gesture on how we feel about that.

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Beautiful. Exactly. It's not typically how it goes. Your neighbor's not your competitor, so someone's like, I don't have to mouth tape anymore. Awesome. Mm-hmm. Stop bragging. Yeah. And, and if you have to, you have to, don't, don't be judgemental about it. It, it can be helpful. And if you have a deviated septum and you can't physically do that, you know, not medical advice, go see somebody.

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Yeah. Preferably a doctor who knows how to help with that. Yeah. But I feel, uh, from Patrick McQueen's instruction, if you can breathe with your mouth tape shut for two hours, you can probably sleep the whole night through. Mm-hmm. You may in fact encounter your CO2 threshold, which is gonna wake you up a little anxious.

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And I'm sorry about that. Eventually that won't happen and you'll sleep better for it. For those of you like me who are in your mid to late forties, I don't have to wake up and go to the bathroom anymore 'cause I mouth tape. Ha ha ha ha. That's pretty epic. I'm not waking up in the middle of the night. Um, and, and you know, for those of you in your sixties or seventies, maybe down to one time instead of three, that's worth it.

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I love that you said this and that you pointed to this kind of what sounds like that compounding effect. I'm so glad you said that because about how there might be an adjustment of the CO2 threshold over time with this mouth tape. Because we've seen many people that they've got tons of wearables and they say, ah, I tried mouth tape.

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Didn't see any noticeable change on my stats, so I tossed it out. How long did you do it exactly? I was seeing people do the, oh, I tried for a week. I tried for two weeks. So they need to stick with it longer, right? Yes, they do. But if they really want to see an impact on their unconscious respiratory rate, mm-hmm.

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You need to adjust your sensitivity to CO2. You need to become less sensitive. Your relationship to CO2 is directly impacting your unconscious breaths per minute. And while yes, you may be wearing mouth tape. If you're still breathing vertically up into the rib cage, taking a breath that's faster than you metabolically need in and out through the nose and not going for the low, slow, deep breath, you are still suboptimally breathing.

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Okay. It's not just in out through the nose. 'cause if you're breathing this way vertically,

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that's still a stressful breath. It's the lateral expansion, the slow down, the non audible,

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that's a markedly slower rhythm. Definitely. Yeah. So it's, it's not just about nasal breathing. What's your cadence? What's the chemical saturation of CO2 within the bloodstream? All of these are integral to really shifting those numbers. If you just think it's nasal breathing, you're missing the majority of the picture.

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Yeah, absolutely. So the tools are neat, but I've also had one of my friends throw away one of his wearables, I won't tell you which one. Okay. He, he called me having a panic attack. I felt like I had the best night's sleep ever. I woke up feeling rested, but this thing says I didn't. Why are you listening to the thing?

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Yeah, exactly. There could be a real need for some data vacations there, or just opt out at certain points in life. If you feel great, feel great. Yeah. And if that thing is making you feel bad, maybe don't use the thing that's making you feel bad because you're not measuring up to whatever arbitrary number the thing says you should be.

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A, do you feel good? It's, it's a journey. Every day is gonna be different. That's okay. Yeah, absolutely. Stop depending on it. Yes. It's not gonna help you. The data does not care. It is not subjective. Your subjective experience sometimes is more impactful than the objective data. Sometimes, not always. Yeah.

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But sometimes I love that. No, there's such wisdom in that too. We've seen that actually in evolution for certain people too, where they've tracked for years and they've kind of gotten some of the major takeaways. You know, say, oh wow, alcohol. I knew it was messed with things, but then it really shows up in my numbers.

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THC thought it was helping me sleep. Interesting. It's messing with my rem, it's messing with my HRV, it's messing with my heart rate. Some of these components they start to learn eating later, can impact certain metrics that they might not have realized, et cetera. But once they start getting some of these major takeaways over time, it might graduate to a period when.

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We don't wanna have these numbers every day. 'cause we do know there is that nocebo effect as opposed to the placebo effect that no SIBO effect, where you wake up and you have a crappy score and then you kind of set the tone and you do the slumping posture as you're speaking to Yeah. And all of that. So yeah.

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Really, really wise to not let those arbitrary or those external numbers impact you. And you're gonna plateau. Yeah. You're gonna reach a point where you plateau and you may be there for three months, six months, it's gonna be longer than you want and eventually you'll leave the plateau. Yeah. Most of the time people are like, I can only hold my breath for 93 seconds.

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That is really on point. Like you, you know, to the second. How about you stop timing for two weeks? Yeah. Just breathe until you don't want to breathe anymore. Hold your breath until you can't hold your breath anymore. Then go back and measuring I broke the plateau. Yeah. 'cause you were watching the timer and you told your brain, I can only hold my breath for 93 seconds.

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So at 93 seconds, you com you, you committed to that reality and you had to take that breath because that's the story you're telling yourself. Ugh. So true. So what story are you telling yourself? And responsibility? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my favorite thing, most of my clients say that Ice bath wasn't as hard as I thought it would be.

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Why are you telling a story where that was hard? Yes. Get it? Yeah. So true. Oh my gosh. The same goes for sleep, right? Right. Absolutely. What story? Oh, I'm not gonna be able to sleep. I'm, I'm, this is gonna be so hard that's careful with that narrative. I'm going to use the tools at my disposal and I'm going to do everything I can to make sure I fall asleep as gently as possible.

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Mm-hmm. That's a nice story. Tell that one. So true. It's all better. I'm gonna use, use the tips Molly gave me and I'm gonna fall asleep nice and easy, and if it's not easy, I'll use the other tips she gave me or that the people on her podcast talked about. Yes. I'll eventually fall asleep. Love that trust and that shift and that personal responsibility and the owning that story.

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And if the story's not serving you shift to a new one. 'cause it's all made up anyway. So good. And it was great. You actually started kind of, I think, sharing some of what we might see in your morning sleep routine. So we see the, maybe the mouth tape on maybe a, not on anything else that we missed in the mornings of how, and we call it morning sleep routine with the idea that how we start our day could impact our sleep.

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I'm grateful that I tried mouth taping. I did my best to set myself up for success in the morning. Can I, as I get up, take two steps back to set my posture to slow my breath down and give myself the luxury of taking a minute, just a minute. I have to get my kids up for school. I've gotta get one there earlier than the others.

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I have a teenager who we have to like, come on, you can do it. Wake up. Ah, yes. So to, to prep for that. I'm gonna give myself a minute. And I like cold water on my face in the morning. So after that I go walk and splash some cold water on my face.

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Um, I, I do wait about half an hour, 45 minutes before I drink a cup of coffee. Um, mainly because I, I mean, Andrew Huberman has a lot of good reasons as to why. Yeah. Uh, mine is, if I pour it when I wake up, I'm not gonna have time to drink it and it's gonna be cold by the time I get back from dropping my kids off from school.

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So I'm just gonna wait. Yeah, I like that. That's very good reason. So I wake up and, you know, if I wake up earlier than everybody else and, and you know, if you wake up before your alarm, so many people are like, ah, I've got 15 minutes. I gotta go back to sleep. I got 15 minutes. What breath work protocol, can I fit into this before I start my normal day?

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Mm. So I take that as a reason to like, all right, today I am gonna do Wim Hof for 15 minutes, breathe light for 15 minutes. I generally want the energy, so I'm gonna go for some Wim Hof. Sure. And I, I'm gonna start my day bouncing and be like, all right, we're making waffles this morning. I've been up for a little bit more than everybody else.

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We've got time. We're not rushing. So I use that early wake up as a reason to take a little more time for me. So good. And now that early wake up instead of being a damnit is a, a ride. Amazing. I wanna be in that household. I want those waffles. Or as my five-year-old calls 'em square pancakes. Ah, so good.

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That's amazing. Okay, so then what might we visually see on your nightstand or in your environment? Mouth tape. A snake plant. Nice. 'cause I like to sleep next to. Something that's absorbing CO2 and giving off oxygen. Mm-hmm. Even on a tiny level, I know it's not really measurable, but that's the placebo effect.

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It makes me feel better. So that's why it's there. Great. And, um, not just on my nightstand, but a bag of candy right next to it. Because as a type one diabetic, if my blood sugar crashes, I need something right there. Oh. And whether I crash or not, the fact that the tool that can save my life is so close, makes me feel better, puts me at ease, helps me sleep better.

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Even if I never need it, I'm happy it's there. So true. A lot of that, as you're pointing to the belief system, the kind of setting our mind at ease, a lot of this will help support our breath and how we're relating to life. So beautiful. Mm-hmm. Great. Okay. And then our last question, unless we missed anything, was there anything else in your environment?

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Nope. Good. Uh, no. Okay. Perfect. Go ahead. Mouth, take candy. Snake plant phone chargers. Ah, hit your face. I mean, people are like, you should sleep with your phone off. This is the alarm that tells me my blood sugar's crashing. Ah, that's a great way to terrify me, Uhhuh. If my battery's like, it's gotta be, it's gotta be there.

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I understand. Yes. So as a dia I do sleep next to my phone, Uhhuh, uh, I do make sure it's on before I go to sleep. Yeah. All that stuff. People are like blue light. I'm like, not dying is a win, is a win win. And sleep can kill me if my blood sugar crashes. So I like this thing. So yeah, we did miss phone charger, which Okay.

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I'm not a bashed about having, I appreciate that. Yes, absolutely. And for anyone else that might be dealing with that. I think we have somewhere on our website some steps if you have an iPhone. Some of the hidden settings for the red light filter. Yes. So they're trying to deal with the light. Or if you have, um, an Android, there's the Twilight app.

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So, you know, different impossible ways for the, for the lighting. But I love that. Thank you. Because we all have these things that we need to make workable and set our mind at ease. So that's the name of the game. Feel safe in bed. Don't let anyone shit all over you. You shouldn't use your phone. You shouldn't do this.

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All right, well, if you're gonna be panicky not doing that. Don't, don't listen to that. Like exactly. If, if your phone measures your, your body's anything to help keep you healthy, alive, yeah. Maybe it's okay that you're like, this is still working. I feel good. I'll put that down now. Fine. And that goes back to, we see that too, where so many people, sometimes they'll come our way after.

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And I was dealt with this too, of trying to follow some of the certain sleep rules and freaking themselves out because they're like not working. So if those are not serving us, then we might need a little bit different of a recipe, if you will. So, so good. So important. And then the fourth question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep?

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Or said another way, maybe biggest aha moment in managing your sleep? That my wife and I need two completely different environments to sleep comfortably. Mm. Yes. That if either of us felt it necessary to be in the other one's environment, we're not sleeping as effectively as we like. Yes, totally. And so we both make compromises.

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And how to get the environment as close to optimal for the other person. She likes to be way warmer than me. She sleeps better when she's warmer. So we have a mattress pad that only heats up on one side. Yes. Great. So, so she can stay warm and I can stay cold. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't have to have all the blankets.

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I like to have a window open, but if the, she's warmer, it's okay that a window's open. The biggest aha moment is that you're probably might sleep differently than your partner. Yeah. You might need a different environment and that's okay. And that was the biggest Oh, okay. So we, we worked and found ways to make it as advantageous for both of us.

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And, and unfortunately it wasn't inexpensive. Mm-hmm. But if I'm sleeping for a third of my life, it was worth the price. Yes. Oh my gosh. Could've said it better myself. Yeah, it's interesting still, one of our most listened to episodes is about a sleep divorce or as it's kind of being renamed a sleep alliance, and this was the concept that.

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Either sleeping in separate bedrooms or if we're are opting to stay in the same bedroom. What are some structures or communication that we need to have, like if it is the, you know, dual mattress topper with the temperature piece or schedules need to be discussed or. Snoring needs to get checked out or all of these different things so that to your point, we can all win.

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And unfortunately too, in that doctor, she wrote the book, sharing the covers, and she was to a number of pieces of research where there would be kind of a blind spot as it related to the thinking of how people were sleeping. They'd be like, oh, I always sleep so much better cuddling with my partner. But then they look at the stats of how they actually slept.

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And often it was worse when they were with their partner. And so it's not to say like everyone should have a sleep divorce or sleep alliance or everyone who put it, but in some cases that could be so, you know, wildly positive and or working to have the proper levels of communication to make it work, if that's one of the things you're going for.

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So brilliant communication is key. You've gotta be honest. And if, if you're not honest, that's where resentment's gonna start to fester. Mm-hmm. And like, ah, I'm just not, and if you're not sleeping well, you're not resting well. Then you're not pulling from a deep enough emotional well. Mm-hmm. And you're going to be shorter.

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You're going to be meaner and you don't want that. Totally. So, and, and I mean, there were concessions. Like, I like to stay up late. Yeah. And if I were to come to bed an hour or two after my wife, she might be awake for an hour or two after I go to sleep. Mm-hmm. And that doesn't breed peace. No. So I don't stay up later.

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And if I do stay up later, it's, it's the exception, not the rule. Mm-hmm. Because she's going to sleep better if we both go down at the same time. Yeah. Perfect. Okay. I can do that if this will help you. But maybe once or twice a month when I stay up late, that fine too. Yep. Awesome. Yeah, totally. Exactly. Make it all work.

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Mm-hmm. And just because it worked last year doesn't mean it works today. You have to go back and revisit this conversation. And it's a weird conversation to have. How you resting? Anything I can do to help? Like, so good. Ugh. What a hallmark of a strong partnership to Yeah, to your point, communicate and then keep communicating.

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You know, it's so true and it's so rare, so amazing. I clear that anyone listening to this episode is going to want to learn more about you, be a part of your world, continue to get these really usable, practical ways that they can bring such a life-changing stack of skills into their life. So how can they best do that?

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Every Sunday at 11:00 AM Pacific and every Monday at 9:00 AM Pacific, I do free breathwork on Zoom. Uh, the link is on my webpage, iced Viking Breathworks. You can go find me on Instagram at iced viking breathworks. Uh, I hope you're seeing a theme. Of course. I mean, I work with corporations, I work with companies.

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I work with private people, sports teams. Anyone who wants just reach out. We'll, we'll talk breath. And it is about these accessible skills. What can I use today for right now? Not, okay. You've got a great practice. That's good. Keep your practice up. But what are you doing for the rest of the day? Hmm? So come to my free sessions.

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The recordings get sent out for free. There's no cost, but you're time and attention. If you're lucky, you'll see some Zoom bombers there trying to make me stressed out and I get to practice in real time, staying calm. Yeah, with some stimulation I'm not necessarily a fan of. Mm-hmm. But there they are.

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There they are. Yep. Well, I know Master of Improv, as I know you are, the ability to kinda handle whatever comes your way, uh, is fantastic. And it's such a demonstration of the power of breath and what you've built there. So, so, so cool. Such an honor. And thank you for not only coming this time, but the time before and you know, so I think we got our tech all aligned.

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So cannot wait to get this episode out, uh, just for all the work you do. Thank you so much. My pleasure. And thanks for having me twice. Twice as nice. It's twice as nice. Love this. Thank you so much, Chuck. Appreciate it. You've been listening to The Sleep Is a Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level.

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Every Monday I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet. Fun Facts. I've never missed a Monday for over five years and counting, and it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to sleep as a skill.com/newsletter to sign up.

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