255: Rob Sweetman, Former Navy SEAL, MBA, Sleep Scientist: Sleep Isn’t a Luxury: A Former Navy SEAL on Sleep, Trauma, and Survival

Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world. Thinks about sleep.

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Each week I'll be interviewing world-class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today.

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To transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.

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Welcome to Sleep as Skilled podcast. Today's episode is a powerful one because we're talking about sleep, not as a luxury, but as a matter of survival, resilience, and readiness. I'm joined by Rob Sweetman, a former Navy SEAL turned sleep scientist whose journey into sleep began after losing a close teammate to suicide.

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What followed was a deep reckoning with a system that trained elite operators to ignore sleep without teaching them how to recover from its loss. In this conversation, Rob shares how sleep deprivation shows up in the military, first responders in everyday life, and why it's not just about feeling tired.

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We explore his concept of the quotes. Sleep Dojo nervous system regulation, trauma dreams, and why so many people wake at two or 3:00 AM without the tools to get back to sleep. We also dive into his work with the Department of Defense, the real world consequences of chronic sleep loss and what it could look like to finally implement what sleep science already knows.

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If you've ever felt wired but exhausted, struggled to shut your mind off at night, or wondered how sleep connects to mental health, trauma and performance, this episode is for you. Listen in, share it with someone who needs it, and let us know what resonated. You can find all the links and ways to support Rob's mission in the show notes.

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So we're gonna jump right into this episode, but first, a few words from our sponsors. As we head into the fall and vacation season winds down IEA time when late nights irregular eating habits and indulgence tend to become the norm. It's time to get back on track with our health and of course our sleep.

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Just a quick, interesting fact about sleep to mention drinking more than two servings of alcohol per day for men and more than one serving per day for women can decrease sleep quality by. 39.2% a sleep Foundation survey reports, not even mentioning all the indulgent food and late night effects that often come along with it.

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And as we know, sleep is the key to your body's rejuvenation and repair process. It controls hunger and weight loss hormones, boost energy levels, and. Countless other functions. A good night's sleep will improve your wellbeing much more than just about anything else I can possibly think of on the planet.

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Uh, you know, I'm biased, but gotta say that. And sleep is your major to focus on as we head into the. Fall season and hopefully beyond, and that's why I recommend that if you're going to start taking some supplements on your sleep often, magnesium is a great place to begin. But not just any magnesium supplement, I do recommend getting the Magnesium Breakthrough by Bio Optimizers.

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Magnesium Breakthrough contains. Seven forms of magnesium designed to help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed, which isn't that what we're all looking to do. The sleep benefits are really remarkable. I use it every night, and once your sleep is optimized, you'll find it much easier to tackle all the other major aspects of your health.

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And trust me, it is a game changer. To test it out, visit mag breakthrough.com/sleep. Skill, you can enter code. Sleep is a skill for 10% off for any order. This special offer is only available@magbreakthrough.com 

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slash sleep is a skill. I will also include this in the show notes as well. 

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Welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast.

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I have a good friend here who is on a mission to help transform this conversation around sleep from many different angles, from, uh, political side of things. Now is a even further, you know, exciting developments that he'll share with us. In addition to, from a spiritual side of things, from an educational side of things, and a real strong mission that was grown out of just a really moving story.

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So we'll let him tell it all. But Robert, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. 

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Hey, 

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yay. 

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Good to see you again, Molly. Yes. Should I give an introduction to me, uh, for your listeners? Please do. 

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That would be beautiful. Okay. 'cause you got a lot to share and just such a inspiring backstory. 

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Thank you.

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So I. Was an entrepreneur in my twenties. At 28, I decided I had this crazy idea. I always felt like I was a patriot, but I never joined the military and so I did a very unlikely thing and I joined to be in the SEAL teams. I made it through training and now without sustaining a bunch of injuries. And eventually, uh, did deployments with Seal Team seven, uh, became an instructor for basically like an.

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A spy course, an FBI surveillance course for seals. And then I retired out. Um, I did sustain an injury that led to my retirement and so I was, you know, busy nursing that injury as well as dealing with sleep issues. And in 2017 something happened that changed my life forever. A friend, a Navy, seal, a rock star, somebody who was a sniper and a medic, his dad was a seal.

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Uh, I was in a platoon with this guy. His name was Ryan Larkin. He took his life in 2017, and that impacted my life in such a big way that I was left, uh, lost for a period of time. And as I retraced my thoughts, my memories, I, I did realize that his, his sleep was getting worse. Now. There's a ton of reasons why that might've been the case, but I didn't know anything about sleep.

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Nothing. Yeah. And they definitely did not teach us about sleep in the SEAL teams. 

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Yeah. 

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We were taught to not sleep. Mm-hmm. We did Hell week, which is five and a half days of continuous training with no sleep. It's insanity. Yeah. They don't care about sleep. Now, I think the, the narrative has changed a little bit in part to the work that I'm doing.

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Kirk Parsley is doing who you've interviewed as well. 

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Mm-hmm. 

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And so, uh. What that led me to was a lot of questions, more questions than I had answers. Ended up at Navy Medical Center, Balboa, asking the medical doctors there, uh, talking to PhDs, entering into graduate school at UCSD, visiting UCSD Health, and what I found was that.

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The, the medical community, uh, had a heavy emphasis on the obstructive sleep apnea and drugs to solve insomnia, but they didn't have a lot of practical solutions for the average person to improve and work on their own sleep. And in fact, there felt like no answers for me and Ryan. Yeah, and Ryan. It's too late for, but maybe if I could find some answers, I could help other people like Ryan.

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So I found as much information as I could, um, mostly in circadian science. Uh, cognitive sciences, neurobiology, neurophysiology, and I tried to apply those in ways, uh, that could help guys like Ryan. Yeah. And I really had a strong emphasis on other Navy seals. But what ended up happening was I continued on a journey to heal myself and to find different perspectives because the American medical model.

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I was finding a lot of dead ends. So I went down to the Amazon and met with healers there. I went to, um, South Africa is one place, and I went to the Himalayas. I lived in an ashram for a while, and I studied breath work and meditation and learned from the farthest corners of the earth. What did they do?

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How did they find centering both in their central nervous system and their spirit, right? How do they find balance and wellness? And through those, uh, lessons, I learned quite a bit about myself. I learned quite a bit about the continuum of human existence, and I think I, I settled on, uh, something that could really impact the world that sort of launched the 62 Romeo Initiative.

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Uh, we did a, a, a pilot study back in 2021. Uh, that turned into a big nonprofit effort that's helped thousands of people. And since then I've sort of dipped into public speaking. Now we're messing around with building sleep pods for the military. I'm messing around with the Pentagon, and as you mentioned, politics.

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And that brings me to today, which somehow someone named me the Sleep Genius. I, I swear I did not come up with that name, but I'll take, it's, I'll take, it's good for marketing. Take 

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it. Yeah. Yeah. 

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So that's me and that's, I'm a, I'm a former Navy Seal sleep scientist. The most unlikely transition, but that's me.

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Oh, I love it. No, it's so great. And that's, I think what we need more of is that kind of different circuitous roots to bring some disruption, to bring new perspectives, new voices, and new lenses to see this problem from various aspects and how to make a difference. In various kind of conversations and groups.

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I mean, especially now I know you're taking this a large scale, so really exciting stuff. So right now, where would you say is the place that you're most excited about? So for the listener that's tuning in and they want to kind of either A, learn more about how to uplevel their own sleep and or b. Learn how to kind of help support some of these initiatives to get some more systemic piece of this addressed.

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Where would you bring that passion? Where are you standing right now? 

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Yeah. Well, they go to your website and sleep as a skill. Ah. 'cause I love what you're doing and we, we obviously work together. Yeah. Uh, for many years supporting each other. And the thing is, is that there's is such a ubiquitous problem these days, especially in every first world country.

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United States is no different. We struggle with sleep. Millions of people. And so where I focus is probably a little bit more, a couple degrees towards veterans and first responders. Sure, 

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yeah, definitely. 

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I definitely, I understand those challenges. Um, yes, my website is Sleep Genius, S-L-E-E-P-G-E-N i.us.

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It's a play on words. Yeah. Um, and so it's a free website. We have a app, it's a free app. There's lots of breathing techniques and resources. We also have some more heavy duty paid courses that I'm happy to offer other people. If you want me to come talk to your department division command. Um, you know, I've helped a lot of firefighters as well as you know, I recently went out to Hawaii to talk to, uh, special Operations Command Pacific.

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I'm absolutely open to do those things as well as civilian. And if your listeners want to. See, you and I both speak together. Yes. And they better tell us. They better tell us. Right. 

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I love that. Yes, a hundred percent. To get this message out and of that message, what are you seeing as some of the biggest challenges that we're facing right now when it comes to.

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Leap, like I know some of the, the mission that you're on relates to the DOD. Any callouts there for people to be aware of, of some of these things that are kind of on the docket right now that we could be up against for some real change? 

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Yeah, absolutely. Recently we were able to get, uh, Mr. Pete Heep into office as the Secretary of Defense.

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And with that, I wrote a very special memorandum to Mr. Hegseth outlining my perspective on what, uh, our beautiful scientists and researchers within the DOD have found over the last 10 and 20 years is a culmination of information showing, uh, where we have, uh, some gaps in sleep health in the military and what the path.

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Forward is, I have an entire site dedicated to, this is within the Sleep, uh, genius website, forward slash dod on there, uh, i, I outline this memorandum called Weaponizing Wellness for the war Fighter. Mm. Now, that might be jarring for some people, right? But the reality is our military here is here to defend and potentially take out bad actors around the world.

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And we need a tough, strong fighting force to make sure that we have our safety and freedoms here in America. So with that said, uh, we have a serious sleep deprivation issue in the military, and I, I wish it wasn't the case, but it is, and this has been officially reported by the GAO. I also have that documentation on the site.

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And so my initiative and if people want to go on there and just click and sign my petition, uh, there's no obligation or anything like that. It's just showing support. Um, my goal is to, to follow through with this initiative, which is weaponizing wellness for the war fighter. Mm-hmm. And all that means is.

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All of the work, the hundreds of millions of dollars that the military has spent on analyzing sleep and figuring out what's wrong with our sleep and trying to create theoretical policy surrounding sleep. We want to implement those and we want one unified leadership. So all these siloed efforts across the DOD can be unified.

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We actually do have the answers. I'm not trying to rewrite the book. In fact, I'm probably the least common denominator with these geniuses in sleep science. Mm-hmm. I want to uplift them. Hmm. I want to be the leader that comes from the enlisted ranks to show our enlisted ranks across the DOD. There's a lot of us mm-hmm.

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That this is what Right looks like. And then we need our leaders to know the criteria for go and no go, meaning green or red. Are our troops good to go or are they sleep deprived? Yeah. Because I'll tell you Molly, uh, when I first started on this, uh, endeavor. In 2017, uh, this is just one example, but it's an extreme example.

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In the military, we had two navy ships that collided with two other navy ships. 19 kids. Died. They will never see their parents. They will never complete their service. And that is unsatisfactory. The reason why after the investigation, you already know what I'm gonna say. Mm-hmm. Sleep deprivation. So things have not gotten any better.

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Uh, last quarter we just dropped two jets out of the sky. We crashed another ship off the coast of Greece. Now, I'm not saying our military's weak. I cannot say that, uh, publicly. What I can say is that there's always room to improve. 

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Sure. 

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We have some tools in front of us. Uh, specifically with the military, that if we implement these and we come together and do this the right way with support from, uh, Bobby Kennedy at hhs, yeah, I believe that Mr.

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Hegseth is a young, vibrant, open-minded leader that can help us institute some of these much needed. Shifts, I won't say complete changes, but shifts to empower the war fighter. They're desperately relying on us to make some change for the better. And if we're ever in a first world conflict, a a major world conflict, we might very well rely on this.

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Wow, so great. Well, I'm so glad that you're speaking out on these topics and really primed to make a real difference with some of these moving pieces that are available to us now. And just, you know, the momentum growing and having people like yourself getting this message out. The time is now. So we'll make sure to share some of that, those links that you mentioned to get other people involved in the petition and beyond.

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So very exciting stuff, and I know as you mentioned, you have a truly unique understanding of some of the plight of. These different groups, veterans, first responders, active duty, et cetera. Maybe we can delve into a bit of that of what you see that they're uniquely dealing with as it relates to sleep, and then some of the ways that, you know, you've been able to help support some of those kind of out of the box solutions or things beyond just, oh, take some sleeping pills, or read a quick book on CBTI, or, you know, something along those lines.

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Yeah. I thank you for asking that question. Yeah. Because, um, the veterans and the first responders are suffering. 

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Yeah. 

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So a veteran is someone who has finished their active duty military service. That's a little different than the DOD. They sort of get transitioned to the Veterans Affairs, the va, and now that's a Doug cro.

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Our new secretary is Doug Collins. Then that's his problem. Uh, the VA is the largest healthcare organization in the United States and perhaps the world. 

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Mm. 

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Uh, and first responders don't even have the va. They're forced to go with whatever, uh, the government provides them, blue Cross, blue Shields, whatever.

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And then there's not a lot of options when they retire. So what I'll say is that the, the challenges with veterans and first responders are similar. Um, part of the reason is that when you experience death and trauma, uh, that can cause post-traumatic stress. And what that means is think of like an echoing of a traumatic memory.

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And guess what? It's not just veterans and first responders. All of us can encounter trauma. Yeah. And have that recur, have intrusive thoughts. Even micro PTS from the last election. Right. Right. We all have different views on what we should be Yes. Doing and all that, but it's so stressful that people are actually experiencing trauma.

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And so our brain processes trauma the same way, regardless of how we encounter that. Like if it's a death in the family or down in combat or whatever. But the point is, um, what I see a lot. With veterans and first responders is that they are encountering some pretty heavy trauma and sometimes, um, especially with the male population, uh, they try to bury it and they try to ignore it.

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And oftentimes you have to, to continue, uh, with the mission, right? And if that stuff isn't addressed, and specifically, uh, when we're sleep deprived surrounding a traumatic event, we can have PTS formation. Now, the name that people probably associate with more is PTSD. Uh, but that last part, the disorder aspect, I would argue that, uh, number one, it's not good to label.

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I have a big problem with the DSM five and the business model surrounding pharmaceuticals and also. Is it really a disorder? Right? 

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Right. 

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Are we looking at this in the right lens? Because I believe that if we can get our sleep on track and we can go down this, this conversation if you want, about dreams, right?

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Dreams lucid dreaming. Yeah. Feeling. Trauma within the dream space. If we allow that container and that space to be opened up so people can actually explore that while they're asleep and have some of that pro uh, trauma processing, they may be able to resolve some of these recurring memories. Mm-hmm. And so, but how are we ever gonna get there if we start out the night?

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With an, an anxiety ridden, uh, hypervigilant state that we see a lot of veterans and first responders, how are we gonna get there if we're not able to down regulate if we have, you know, more cortisol than we should, more, more adrenaline in our brain than we should. Um, lighter sleep. We're using alcohol to go to sleep, or we're drinking too much caffeine throughout the day.

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We're not respecting, I like the word sleep dojo. We're not respecting our sleep dojo and the sanctity of this re this, uh, recovery period. Mm. I love that. Go into it trying to stay awake. Maybe we don't even realize that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to stay alert and on this self-defense mode, and then we shortchange ourselves on the ladder, uh, sleep stages, right on the ladder sleep cycles.

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We may wake up early at two or 3:00 AM and not have the skills or the understanding that it is possible to go back to sleep and capture some of those later sleep cycles. They are heavy into the dream space and that, um, you know, some people, especially veterans and first responders, are just gonna start their day.

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They're gonna accept short sleep and they're gonna focus on re-engaging in the mission because that's how they were trained. So there's, I just listed a whole, a whole lot of problems that we're dealing with. And so for me, when I address this. And I'd love to hear your advice and recommendations when I address this.

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I think the first thing is, of course, nervous system regulation. 

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Mm. 

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Uh, respecting the sanctity of the sleep dojo. Mm. Or your, your sleep domicile. 

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Yeah. 

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Preparing for sleep, which means we might have to have a bedtime, a schedule. 

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Yeah. 

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Having some consistency within that schedule. And then when life happens.

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Which is gonna happen, especially for those of us that have nightmares, night terrors, uh, challenging thoughts, memories. Yeah. When we wake up in the middle of the night, do we have the skillset and mindset to be able to go back to sleep and capture a little bit more sleep that we desperately need, maybe even some of that dream sleep that we talked about and, and improve our mental health over time.

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Oh, I love that a hundred percent. And I love that sleep dojo kind of verbiage. That's great. So for you, the sleep Dojo, do you define that too as certainly, of course your sleep space, but also just like, I love how you kind of referred to the sanctity of that space and kind of just really giving some reverence to Yes.

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How we're relating to that prioritizing kind of giving that some verbiage for people. 

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I love. The word reverence in how you frame that. Mm-hmm. Because it, it absolutely is important. If we look at Marcus Aurelius and I, I like to, to talk about Marcus Aurelius because he is a Roman emperor. A lot of my community identifies with who that was as a famous emperor that went to war.

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And a lot of us identify with meditations and some of these stoicism work that, uh, the greats have done, including Marcus Aurelius. If you try to capture the essence of, of how he looks at sleep, what we see is sort of an indication to bookend our day, meaning, yes, we'll go to war. Yes, we will go to combat, but we must take off our armor and sometimes it's psychological armor to be able to transition into a different state of recovery.

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And if we don't allow our troops to do that, it's like pulling them through the winter across, you know, thousands of miles. They're just gonna die. Right? We have to have recovery within that period of time so we can come back into combat a hundred percent. And for many of us, we're not going to combat, we're just going into.

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Road rage and traffic. 

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Yeah, exactly. 

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Into the nine to five. But it's still the same thing. Yeah. Life is hard. It's stressful. We may encounter trauma and so if we come into that half cocked, half recovered, we're actually gonna have a higher level of symptoms or, um, the way that we impact experiences in a negative way.

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If we're getting fully restored and fully rested, we can actually address those issues in a more meaningful. In a more respectful and more, uh, helpful way and carry less trauma? Yes. We have studies that show that PTS formation is higher when we are sleep deprived. Yes, we get less sleep before or after the event.

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Uh, higher rates. So when I talk about sleep dojo. What I like to reference is my very long career in martial arts. Mm. Um, I, I, I was a high school wrestler, went on to college, wrestling, wrestled in the open circuit, went back and coached, uh, wrestling. And then in 2009 I decided to try out Jiujitsu and I fell in love with it.

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A lot of, like even last night, um, at an event, somebody asked me like, what's the best martial art? I'm like, look, the first thing that you should do is walk away from a conflict. Okay. 

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Right, exactly. Order of importance. 

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Yeah. But I would say that just understanding your body and your awareness and spacing and um, what you can do to defend vital parts of your body.

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So I take that, that whole thought process and I bring it to the bedroom. So if. We enter into, I don't know how many people have ever been into a, a dojo for martial arts or something like that. But if you can visualize, uh, when you walk into this space, everything's clean. Mm. There's maybe metals, trophies, pictures on the wall, and there's a mat on the floor.

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And this is somewhere that not only are we going to come to respect ourselves, but offer a lot of respect to the master, the sensei, the instructor. And, and we might even come in and take off our shoes and bow before we enter onto the mat. And so what are we there to do? We're there to get better at something to improve our lives, to learn a new, uh, skillset or to find more grounding.

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And so these are some of the things that I reflect on in martial arts. So when we look at, uh, the Sleep Dojo, right? If we set up our sleeping space, like get rid of the TV and the emails and all the stuff that keeps our mind on the wheel and make this your most tranquil. Nighttime spa for yourself. Love that.

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And love yourself and treat yourself a little bit. And when you enter into this space, you respect it. It's easier to, it's easy to disrespect it when it's your own space, but you have to respect your space and yourself. My recommendation, not a requirement, is to keep it uncluttered and very neat and clean and beautiful.

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And then as we transition into that space. Maybe we have some routines. We get into our nighttime clothes. Maybe we sit down and do a little breath work, but whatever it is, we're relaxing and we're transitioning. Like Marcus Aelius talked about, we're taking off that armor and we're accepting vulnerability.

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We're allowing ourselves to slip into that more calm down, parasympathetic state. 

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Hmm. 

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And if we're able to do that, and this is super hard for veterans and first responders. Right. If we're able to, to get that shift in our autonomic nervous system, you can feel it if you practice it a lot. Sure. Right. We downregulate, all of a sudden sleep gets a lot easier.

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We put a little intentionality into getting sleep and it works better. Right. And so obviously there's lots of tips and tricks. Yes. And, um, happy to share with you what I do. Um, I used to never preach any supplementation. I kind of talk about it now for other reasons that you might not expect. 

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Okay. Yeah.

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But 

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yeah, but for me, um, just setting up the sleep dojo to start with. That's the most important thing. Right? I 

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love that. Yes. I think that's such a great perspective too. 'cause oftentimes, at least when people might come our way, they might be frustrated with their sleep or just sort of like at the effect of, or sometimes feeling like victimized, like their sleep is, their body is working against them and all these sort of narratives.

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But this kind of shift to restore a sense of power and this opportunity that becomes available. We reframe it from this really inspiring perspective around beginning with the sleep dojo. Never heard anyone describe it like that. So I just think that's like so great. And so bringing that sense of prioritization, that downregulation, all of that, I think can be so transformative.

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So. You mentioned that you're open to sharing how you're managing your own sleep, and that's perfect because we do ask everyone four questions around how they're managing their own sleep. But before we get into those questions, any quick callouts? I know you mentioned the supplementation, kind of new stance on that.

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Anything you wanna share before we jump into how you're managing your sleep? 

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Yeah, I'll mention supplementation because Sure. Um, I'll tell you what I use, but also, um, this is the, this says not for resale. This is the, uh, copies of 62 Romeo book. Um, nothing special here. Just tell my story. Um, and then go into.

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All of the details of the 62 Romeo Sleep Program. Uh, I just wanna make it easier and more accessible for everybody. Um, I think it might be live on Amazon, I'm not sure, but I just got these and, and just did the review to check it out. Everything looks good. Um, so if you guys wanna buy that, uh, it's not very expensive.

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And then, um, I'll probably renew that and, and tweak it and add a little bit every year. Amazing. So there'll be a different version that comes out every year. I'm looking at it more as a, a textbook, as a supplementary for, uh, the courses I've put on, but just getting this information out to everybody, um, as fast as possible on what your sleep could be.

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Um, that's the goal, right? So just another medium. 

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Totally. Well, amazing. Very exciting. I will definitely be purchasing that then supporting, so yay you. And then, yeah, definitely wanna hear how you're managing your own sleep, especially with your unique vantage point of sleeping in unique situations and stressors and all of it.

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So our first question that we ask everyone is, what is your nightly sleep routine looking like right now? 

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Great question. If we look back at my military service, it was, uh, terrible and we just tried to sleep whenever we could. So getting out, I now have a much greater degree of control over my sleep, but I still didn't sleep great.

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Getting outta the military. 'cause I didn't know anything. It took a lot of time to learn some of these lessons that you and I are trying to teach people. Um, so you know, listen up. Right? Um, but now, um, I find myself in a different country or a different state, um, every week or every month, very frequently.

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So on the Sleep Genius website, which is a free website, we have the app too. I think you've made a post on there, Molly. Thank you. Yeah. Yes, please. We all support each other. Um, the on there, I think I wrote an article must be a couple weeks ago, talking about this very topic. And the reason why is because a lot of people came to me and said, Hey, how do I deal with jet lag?

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In fact, I had another person who I coached who was 12 on 12 off police officer up in Maine. Um, his testimonials, uh, that's where I'm from 

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originally. Amazing. Oh yes. 

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Love it. Love it. Uh, best lobster ever. Right? 

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Exactly. 

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So. So this, this guy was really struggling with his sleep because probably maybe he was trying to do too much, um, while he was awake.

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But, but the consistency and the downregulation, most people don't know that these first responders, uh, law enforcement and fire, they deal with a lot of death, even death of children. They see some really gruesome stuff and they're actively trying to process that stuff. So the point is, I wrote an article about how to deal with shift change and, uh, and jet lag.

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Amazing. 

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Uh, that article is free to read. Uh, gives a lot of great tips on there. So, having actively experienced this myself, because I'm always traveling, I always have a little bit of jet lag. What I've found is that the first thing that I like to do is plan ahead, right? Mm-hmm. I like to ratchet my sleep schedule because I know that I should have consistent.

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Bedtime. So if I'm in, uh, California today and New York tomorrow, that's a three hour time difference that could significantly disrupt my sleep And my melatonin is thinking, Hey, um, it's not time. And my cortisol is thinking like, Hey, what time is it? And all of these hormonal interactions start to get outta whack, right?

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So if I'm able to shift 30 minutes or an hour, so let's, let's call it one hour, three days ahead of time, I'm shifting my bedtime. Then when I show up in New York. There's no change. I go to bed at that time. Um, so you could do that in reverse, uh, when you get to New York, or you could split the difference, right?

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You could, depending on how many time zones you could start to adjust and ratchet your sleep before you leave, and then finish the adjustment when you get there. But sometimes you don't even have a choice, like you're thrust into a different time zone or imagine a shift change. I, I feel for the healthcare workers that are constantly on, on shift work, 

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I know.

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What do you do to try to get the best sleep possible? If you don't have a choice, you know your hormones are gonna be outta whack. Mm. You know, your circadian rhythms like what is going on? And what I like to do when I'm in that situation is try to lean on the behavioral practices that I normally do. To successfully sleep.

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And so let's say if I have a bedtime routine that includes a little bit of breath, work a little bit, maybe some movement, some yoga, getting into my bedtime clothes, turning down the lights, maybe using a specific light I use, I wish, I wish Hatch Restore would endorse me 'cause I've sold hundreds of their products, but, oh my gosh, store.

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If you have a contact, put me in touch. 'cause I push their product all the time. 

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I think I do actually. So yeah, please, I'll double check, but I can definitely, if I do, let me, we'll do something. 

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Yeah. Every, every person that's ever been through the six two Romeo course, I've sent them a hatch and now the Hatcher Store three just came out.

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So anyways, um. I love Hatch because it does a light and a sound, but however you do it, sometimes you just need your cell phone, uh, with some white noise. But I will typically introduce some very amber, red, low, uh, luxe light into my bedroom space, and then have that on a timer to, uh, turn off after an hour.

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Right? That's part of my wind down. So then now I have this ocular sensor feature, right? So now I, I, I've got this predictable light, and then I have a white noise machine. I like thunder and rainstorm, stuff like that. So I'll play that. And so now, uh, maybe if I choose to, if it's a harsh, uh, time zone change now maybe I'll introduce some supplementation.

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Like a, a heavy magnesium mm-hmm. Type of supplement, like Moon Brew. I've been pushing a lot of Moon Brew. Mm-hmm. And by the way, I do want to give a shout out to Moon Brew, 'cause Ronak over at their company just sent another a thousand dollars in free product to, uh, Navy Seals who are. Are gonna use their supplement and, and I've promoted, uh, moon Brew for a long time.

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Hmm. They support 62 Romeo. They give veterans and first responders samples and stuff like that. Wow. At no cost. I take no money from them. I just say, Hey, I believe in your supplement. It's a good list and good sourcing of, uh, you know, like the reishi mushroom and Ashwaganda and all that stuff. It is like, I think you have a good product here.

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I don't want any money. I'll promote you so long as you hook up the guys and gals that need it most. Oh, 

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amazing. 

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That's great. Also, you know, your former guest, Kirk Parsley, has a great, uh, sleep remedy. Yes. So for me, I'll drink some moon brew. Um, and, you know, getting a good magnesium supplement before bed not only is, could that support good sleep health or typically magnesium deficient.

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But now. Think about all the things that my body is recognizing yes. As behavioral and social mechanisms leading up to sleep. So now we started to solve some of the circadian confusion within our body, right? Yes. And then in the morning, what do we do, right? We work out, we get up at the same time, do the same things, try to get as much sunlight, even if you're in a different time zone, soak in that sunlight, take off the sunglasses, get that exercise, get that creatine surge, right?

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And. While I may be slightly circadian misaligned, I can actually recover much faster because I'm giving my body the signals to let it know this is what my timing is looking like Now. 

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Mm. So good. Yeah, this is all resonating. I just got back from Nashville from this event that I was just at and same thing.

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It was so perfect. You know, kind of the having the sleep drink and the wind down and also as much as possible, even when people, when you're with other people that maybe aren't in some of these circadian aligned conversations as much, and there's like super late dinners and all the things like how does.

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Still manage all of that. And that was some of the things that I was able to do. It's kind of still have some of my earlier aligned meal timing and then just have like a little bit like lower, smaller volume for the dinners who's still participating. Still a part of it, but your sleep isn't totally wrecked, you know?

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So yeah, just, I love that. Those are such great tips because life happens and we wanna. Have a big life and not be restricted by our sleep. We wanna be empowered by our sleep and, and have these things actually be kind of calming and supportive mechanisms. So, so great. Okay. And then the second question would be, what might we see in your morning sleep routine with the idea that how we start our day can impact our sleep?

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It's absolutely critical to the other half of Yeah. The puzzle, right? 

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Exactly. 

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When I think about my sleep and I work with others to help their sleep. I often reflect on the irony that I'm not doing a whole lot. 

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Yes. 

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While I'm asleep, I'm not actually helping people sleep better specifically and directly.

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Yes. I'm actually helping them change their behaviors and their actions and their thoughts and their things while they're awake and really sleep ends up being a little bit of like a barometric pressure gauge for how we did during the day. Right, 

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exactly. Yeah. 

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It's true. So starting off the day, really in my opinion, resets the circadian rhythm with that first morning light right into those melanox and ganglion cells and the retina giving our, our circadian rhythm, our the SCN.

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Right. Giving it that, that time hack. It's like, Hey, guess what? The day has started. Yes. Now I'll agree with, I'll agree with, uh, Andrew Huberman in that, uh, we need to increase body temperature. We need to increase respiration and per, per perspiration to support that waking, uh, body reaction. And in doing so, right, we tell our body, Hey, we are awake, we are alive.

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Check it out. This is the beginning of my day. And by the way, if I do the same thing every day, even if I shift time zones, the body says, okay. We're entering into the day. Um, I'm a belie a big believer in, um, heavier, uh, exercise in the morning. I think that's a personal choice for everybody. Uh, but what I try not to do is crazy heavy workouts at nighttime because mm-hmm.

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A lot of times that'll just get me spun up and I'll be activated, uh, throughout the night. So I would say, um, right now today, I, I like to wake up about 5:00 AM Um, I, I am a little bit of, uh. A night owl, but I acknowledged that. The world starts at 8:00 AM and in as a Californian out here, the east coast starts at 5:00 AM for me.

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Yeah. So I, what I hate more than anything, this is a personal choice. Everybody can make their own decisions to try to stay with their chronotype or not, but I, I. Despise being late to emails and the conversations are going back and forth. Mm. And I'm like late to the game. Yes. It crushes me. So, five a I try to keep consistency.

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Mm-hmm. So 5:00 AM I'll work out. Um, I'm doing a lot of charity events this summer, so I'm doing a lot of running and swimming. Um, after that I like to do breath work. I, you know, you mentioned the insight timer when we first started our call, uh, in the, in the pre-talk. And yeah, I do breath work. I do, I love box breathing, but I also do the tuo breath.

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Um, I learned that up in the Himalayas, uh, just like Wim Hoff. And it is powerful. It can change your life. Um, if, if I am. Not processing enough. In my dream space, a lot of times it's critical for me to get a little meditation. 

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Mm-hmm. 

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They say, um, prayer is asking God for whatever you're praying for, but they say meditation is listening.

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Mm-hmm. And so I like to do both. Um, and perhaps show a little grace. Um, sometimes the hardest thing to do is appreciate life and I just have to be so appreciative of my children, of my family. My parents are still kicking, and life is not that bad. I know it could be a lot worse. So showing a little gratitude, even gratitude journaling or just showing break.

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That, that's just so powerful for sort of setting the mind right for the day. Um, after that, you know, who knows? The day is gonna be chaos. Yeah. I live a very active life and at that point I'm prepared to encounter whatever is in store for me. And then again, at the end of the day. I gotta shut it down so I can get that recovery so I can do it again tomorrow.

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Yes. Oh my goodness. And you've been doing that kind of 5:00 AM club for a while. In order to do that, do you have a particular time where you start kind of like winding down to hit that kind of consistently, like maintain that wake up time? Like how do you manage the front end of that with your bedtime?

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Yeah, absolutely. It heavily depends on whether I'm with my kids or not. 

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Okay. 

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Because. My son is bouncing off. He's six years old now. He is bouncing off the walls all the time. Yes. And so we have to manage. They need, they have a greater sleep need. I have a 16-year-old and a 6-year-old. They both have different sleep needs as well as a a 43-year-old man, I've got a different sleep need.

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Yes. 

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For me, I like to, I'm, I'm like a seven hour and 15 minute sleeper. I feel like that's 

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what, oh yeah, I'm around that too. Like a 7 15, 7 25. 

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Okay. 

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Timeframe or so? I mean, not to get too nuanced, but depending on different points of my cycle and different things or amount, like, you know, exercising. But yeah, I'm definitely more on the, on the shorter end, so that 7 15, 7 25 maybe on rare occasions can swing to like seven.

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40 or something, but mostly below seven 30. And my husband is like the opposite. So he's like a much longer sleeper. So I'm like, oh my God, come on. Wake up. Like 

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that is one of the hardest conversations. And Wendy Troxell, I think, yes, she approached the dear friend. She, she's amazing. Her book, uh uh, sharing the covers, I think it was called.

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Yep. 

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Actually has a pretty surprising finish. I think couples should read that. 

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Yes. 

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Not necessarily to make a decision, but to open the conversation. A lot of couples don't even talk about it. It's like, we should talk about this. Right. 

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I'm so glad you're mentioning this. This was, has continues to be our most listened to podcast was the episode with her.

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You know, I think it. Touched on, it resonated for a lot of people where she brought this new language similar to you with the Sleep Dojo. She brought this new language around Sleep Alliance. So instead of a sleep divorce, which can sound so loaded and you know, negative leaning, whereas the Sleep Alliance, okay, suddenly the PR for that sounds much more aligned and what have you.

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So yeah. And then creating these conversations 'cause the communication is key for the workability of these. Not only just our partners, but our pets, our kids, all of it. Anyone that's sharing the covers with you, how to make that all workable. 

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That's true. 

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Amazing. So good. Okay. The third question would be, what might we visually see on your nightstand or in your environment as well?

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If I am at my RV in San Diego, I've got a Hatcher store two, and I think that's it. Yes. And then, uh, at the ranch in Colorado, I have a Marpac I wanna say. Oh yeah. It's the, uh, duo and that is a, a physical sound machine. So what, what's different about the Hatcher store? It's a digital. Representation of white noise or whatever.

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Uh, I like the thunder showers. Uh, and then it has an LED based, um, light, and I like to make it more of an amber tone and kind of keep it at about 50% and then phase it out after an hour. Um, I, I tend to have a ca more chaotic schedule in California. When I'm in Colorado. It's absolutely peaceful and relaxing.

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Mm-hmm. There are no other humans out there or out in nature. I wake up with the sun, I go to bed with the sun in a more consistent way. And so I kind of just like go with the flow rather than, uh, forcing a plan. And so for the sound, if I add a little, I do tend to add, I have tinnitus from mm-hmm. Shooting guns and stuff and 

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Sure.

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I, uh, I tend to use white noise, and so white noise or brown noise, pink noise. A lot of people like the pink noise, but for me, a mechanical white noise machine will always outweigh. Excuse me. We'll always outweigh a digital sound machine. And in fact, I think our brains can pick up the difference. Um, so it's, it's really calming.

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Now I'm also traveling quite a bit, right? Sure. And I, I'm not gonna bring the, the Hatcher store. I, I have brought the, um, the Uno or Duo or whichever one of the, um, I have tons of this stuff laying around, by the way. Yes. Um, sometimes I, I will bring it if I have a carry on. Uh, but most of the time I'm running light.

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And so if I do guess what I'm gonna use the. This is my favorite app is called Brainwave Advanced Binaural Programs. I'll play this by itself because it's a white noise machine, but something interesting and let me see if I have some here. Yeah, I do. So these are, these are sleep buds. And if you haven't played with these yet, I'm sure you have.

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But 

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yeah, 

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like what a great invention. So now we got these little silicone soft things that fit in my ear. So in an extreme situation. I will actually play, uh, potentially some white noise and put in these noise buffering white noise machines. Yes. And play white noise machine and play some binaural audio to help map, uh, to help my brain fall into that.

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Um, correct. Uh. Brain activity for sleep, so that that's an extreme situation where we have multiple layers of white noise. But I find that in all situations, the most important thing is that I've intentionally set out. To architect my sleep dojo, even if it's in a hotel. Uh, a lot of times the Marriott will kick that temperature up to like 71.

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I'm like, why are you doing that? So I like it at about 68 if I can, a little bit of white noise to kind of buffer out any noise pollution. Um, sometimes I'll wear light clothing, uh, to help me because sometimes if I have a very active dream or, or. Nightmare for that matter. I can purse spray, I can get hot and I'll kick off the covers.

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So being careful about what material I wear to bed's important. And then of course, blacking out everything. Trying to be careful about, um, too much light exposure at night and that, that's my recipe. 

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I love that. So good. I realize I kind of interjected when you were sharing about the seven hours and 15 minutes or so.

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Did we leave anything out additionally for the management of that kind of bedtime and, and with the, that beautiful space that you've got with the sound and everything? Was there anything we missed? 

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I think, uh, to the, to finish answering your question. 

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Yeah. 

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Um, I do the math, right, so if I need to wake up at 5:00 AM.

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Then that means I need to subtract seven hours and 15 minutes. Right? And so I need to be asleep, but what about sleep latency? How long is it gonna take me to fall asleep? Yeah. So I probably need seven and a half hours. 

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Yep. 

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Then if that's my, uh, time when I, I hit the sheets, right? Is it's not gonna kill me if I wake up 15 minutes before five to go work out, right?

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Mm-hmm. Um, so I add, add another 15 minutes in there and then. What about wind down, right? Yeah. So I need 45 minutes to an hour to put up the emails. How chaotic is it to answer a high intensity email? 

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Yes. 

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Right before bed, right? Totally. I'm trying to crank out a proposal and it's like, what are you doing?

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Stop. Yeah. 

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Yeah. 

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Um, so I gotta put away the laptop. I gotta put up the phone. Um. Sometimes I have to use the phone for an alarm. Uh, it's better to have a, a separate alarm so you can keep the phone out of your brain space, out of your personal space. 

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Yeah. 

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Um. So, yeah, I just use simple math and if things change and I have a different wake time, sometimes I help out and support military operations.

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They don't care about my sleep schedule. Yes, they have a, a drop dead time. You know, zero three, we gotta meet on the beach to join these, uh, you know. Craft and go out and launch a mission, whatever. Okay, so what do I do then? 

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Right? Rolling 

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everything we just talked about and then use that math to figure out when I need to go to bed.

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So good. Okay. So you really manage your sleep thoughtfully and kind of set yourself up for success and then when certain things happen, circumstances arise, you know, yourself is resilient to be able to move and you know, be able to bring yourself back on track. Beautiful. Okay. Well, the last question would be so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to the overall management of your sleep?

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Or said another way, maybe biggest aha moment in managing your sleep? 

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I would say the biggest aha moment in managing my sleep would have to be giving myself a bedtime, because 

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Yeah. Yeah, 

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as much, as much as we wanna pretend like we're perfect, sometimes, most of us. Struggle with turning it off. Yes. Um, especially, you know, you and I are entrepreneurs.

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Yes. 

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Um, very creative thinkers, innovators, like, there's always another idea. 

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Totally. 

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And what better time for an idea to appear when you're totally relaxed and zening out for your bedtime? Right. Uh, and then it turns into a spiraling effect. And, and I actually see that with a lot of people. Uh, I gotta kill the spiral.

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I gotta stop it. Um, and, and even, you know, I'll admit that even, um, in the middle of the night, I have had panic attacks. Oh. I've been same. Been through a lot. 

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Mm-hmm. 

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I've experienced a lot and sometimes that stuff resurfaces when I don't want it to be there. 

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Yeah, yeah. 

‍

Um, so being able to reframe, having the wherewithal to say.

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This is happening in my mind, whether it's at the end of the day and I want to finish emails or a proposal, or it's in the middle of the night and I have traumatic thoughts that come up. 

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Mm-hmm. 

‍

I have to have the wherewithal to know that this is, these are things that these thoughts are coming into my mind.

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They are things, I have emotions. I should read those emotions and accept them and acknowledge them, but I actually have the ability to redirect this. Mm. And if I simply think about things that make me smile. Show a little bit of grace and gratitude for the life that I have. I'm able to quickly restructure that.

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So in essence, whether it is falling asleep at nighttime or re-engaging sleep after, uh, an awakening, I think being able to set boundaries for myself and say, okay, you need a bedtime, and when things come up, you can't spiral and go off in left field. Yes, you get back to the plan, then I, I know I'm gonna feel good the next day and I can be a hundred percent.

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Oh, I love that. Well, and thank you so much for the openness and vulnerability of sharing that. That's so helpful. 'cause you know, sometimes we can have it or people can have it that, oh well you know, this person, they're never dealing with anything now. Oh, they're, you know, everything's just handled. And I think that that's what we wanna.

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Point to is that life continue is dynamic and there's certain things that we're, you know, navigating and that this is, it's never about perfection and sleep and perfection do not go well together like trying to achieve. And that's where you, sometimes I think like wearables can become sometimes problematic depending on the person.

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And what you're sharing is. So important, the humanity here and the real world. Things that come up and like your original story like you shared too, of the real world consequences that can happen when we don't have the tools. Sadly, those suicidality rates we know go way up in the wee hours of the morning when people are not sleeping and they don't have these tools to build to kind of get themselves back on track.

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Say, we won't have these moments when we're at the effect of our thoughts, but to be able to come back to center as you're speaking to. So helpful, so beautiful. And I just so appreciate you taking the time and doing all the work you're doing and it's not for the faint of heart and traveling here and there and so, so grateful.

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So how can people follow you, be a part of this mission? You know, kinda check out some of these events that you hold, be on the app, all the things. 

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Everything can be found at Sleep Genius website. That is www.sleepgeni.us. It's a play on words. Um slash dod is the DOD site. Uh. Forward slash founder that tells my story.

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But if you just go to the homepage, we have the app, we have links to socials, we have hundreds of testimonials. I actually got tired of posting testimonials. Wow. I'm like, nobody's gonna watch all these. It's just cap it off at whatever we got right here. That's great. I've got some podcasts. Um, I wanna start a podcast called, uh, running On Fumes one of these days, but, 

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Ooh.

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Where, where we tell stories of, uh, active duty, sleep deprivation, and just kinda laugh at ourselves and make it a little bit funny. 

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Please do that. I like truth. 

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I like truth, right? Yeah. The reality of the situation. So yeah, I'm on all the major social media platforms. I'm a normal person. I will respond. Um, happy to help anybody.

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There's always a way to help. Um, doesn't have to be, um, it is gonna be a different solution for everybody. So yeah, that's my mission in life and I'm doing it every day. 

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Yay. So. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time and I know that things are gonna continue to evolve. So I'm sure we'll have opportunity for kind of a part two down the road.

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Thank you. 

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You've been listening to The Sleep Is A Skill Podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet. Fun fact, I've never missed a Monday for over five years and counting.

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And it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to Sleep as a skill.com/newsletter to sign up.

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