262: Andrej Klokner, Founder & CEO of The Klokners Consulting, Productivity Coach: The Productivity Trap Ruining Your Sleep

 Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world. Thinks about sleep.

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Each week I'll be interviewing world-class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today.

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To transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.

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Welcome to Sleep is a Skill podcast where we help you optimize your sleep so you can truly show up for your life. If you've ever gone to bed exhausted, but still wired, replaying everything you didn't get done, this episode is for you because what if the real issue isn't your sleep, but your relationship with time?

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Today we're joined by Andre Klokler, a scale-up coach, CEO, and licensed productivity expert. With over 15 years of experience helping leaders grow from five to 30 plus team members with more ease. He's also the creator of the integrated man concept and his work challenges. One of the biggest assumptions high performers carry that something is wrong with them.

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In this conversation, we unpack why so many of us stay stuck in reactive mode, constantly putting out fires, carrying everything in our heads, and ending the day with even more to do. How that pattern quietly follows you into bed, showing up as racing thoughts and that feeling of never being done. You'll learn simple, practical tools to move from overwhelm to clarity, from constant doing to true completion, and how that directly impacts your ability to sleep.

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So if you've been feeling stuck in the loop of doing more but resting less, this is your invitation to pause and see things differently. So tune in and notice what shifts for you and share this with someone who needs it. So remember, as always, sleep is a skill and you can train it. And as a quick aside, if you're interested in exploring any of Andre's courses programs, we will leave information in the show notes so that you can check those out as well.

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And welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast. 

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This episode is so needed for so many people. So Andrej, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. 

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Welcome, and I'm grateful to be here and I'm actually left without the words. 

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Oh, fantastic. That's how we like to leave people speechless with the excitement.

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So yeah. Andre, maybe a little bit just about how you even found yourself as an expert in this domain and how it relates to sleep. 

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So domain is productivity. 

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Yes, exactly. 

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Good. When I was thinking about this question is that I actually, I remember when I was like 17 and on the bus, uh, to be like a student for the, uh, in the, in the summer job, right?

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For the students. Yeah. And sitting there, I went to Volkswagen factory, uh, you know, work with tires whole, whole day long. And I was just wondering like how those adults, like they can really just persistently perform at a certain level. Mm-hmm. And I felt like failure, complete failure because like, I'm never gonna actually perform at the consistent level, like the machine that is in the factory.

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And, uh, I was just wondering all the time, like, okay, what do I need to do to actually be consistent, not feel like crap from time to time and consistently wor doubting myself. And, uh, years went by and I ended up in the environment that was created by Navy Seals. 

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Hmm. 

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And then after six years when I actually was working five days, uh, five days a week, 12, 14 hours a day, year in, year out, and I realized and was still wait able, was able to produce consistent results, I realized like, hold on one day, uh.

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Maybe actually I'm enough. Maybe it's, I'm fine. There's nothing wrong with me. 

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Mm. Preach often. It's often part of the goal. 

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Exactly. And then, so then I ended up actually just working with other people that when they're trying to constant co constantly try to get better, improve And so, and I ended up in the world of training and development and actually addressing.

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Coming into this world where the biggest pitfall is that people find, fundamentally think that they are, something is wrong with them and trying to improve something to fix. 

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Yeah. 

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And, and now I'm coming into this whole arena with the context, like maybe you're fine. 

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Hmm. 

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What, what would you like to actually work on?

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What is really important for you? 

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Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's been wonderful, my experience of learning from you different, this whole approach, how to manage your day to day, and of course we say time management, but it really ends up being your experience of your life and how. Fulfilled you feel by the end of the day and your ability to rest your head on that pillow with a sense of, I fulfilled on the things that I said were important to me and we see this all the time in sleep where especially with my high performers, entrepreneurs, all of these people that might have a sense that still more to do or I said I was gonna do X and I didn't.

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And you have real fascinating methods and ways of supporting people with that, that I think. Are really this mix of simple and yet at the same time can be really confronting. It really has us tell the truth about what we're gonna take on each day and what did we get done and can really change the game.

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The bottom line of the whole conversation is actually the relationship with time. What isn't, what is your relationship with time and, and whoever you are, like we are talking about like different executives and people more, more responsible, uh, and who are already high performers. They're still questioning like, okay, so well, or they're experiencing this moment of like what keeps them awake, not pun intended.

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Yeah. In this conversation about the sleeping, what keeps them awake? Is that okay? Well, I was. Busy the whole day long. I was responding to all the fires. Putting off and dealing with the most loud people. 

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Yeah, exactly. 

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Fixing the, fixing the problems. Then keeping a lot of stuff in my own head and then coming home and you know, and there is like five o'clock before I should leave, there is email that comes from the client or from the boss, quote unquote.

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And there's like, okay, one more thing tomorrow, today I go, I'll grind and hopefully tomorrow is gonna be different. Mm. And then I come home, and now we're talking about the sleep. Uh, so many people are just referring to one simple thing is that then, uh, they're about to put their, uh, head on the pillow, and then they're worrying about, did I do this?

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Did something fall through the crack? Oh, did they send it to me, what I asked them to do? And they're, and tomorrow is the same thing, like today, starting with the to-do list and ends up with a list that is even longer than it was at the beginning of the day. 

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Yes 

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and relate relating to the time that hopefully one day is gonna be different, but today I have to get it all done.

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Exactly, exactly. 

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Then, then something is gonna be different. And, and it's really interesting to, uh, uh, sorry. I'll, uh, I'll just mention one thing is that it's not necessarily in, in this work, uh, like when we are talking about the sleep, uh, and the, like that experience of life, it's not only necessarily about the to-do list and all the stuff to do over there, uh, to get it all done.

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Yes, we can get it all done. But what I'm referring to, and that's why I love this whole conversation, uh, that we are having even right now, is that results is only one part of the equation. Mm. The other one is the human experience that is still valid while we are producing results. 

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Mm. 

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So even if I'm just grinding, getting things done, chasing people to get things done, you know, the signing the big contracts, there is still human being that is having a tense, tense shoulders.

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Hmm. Yeah, 

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there is, there is the person who is experiencing some, uh, version, most of the days we are experiencing some version of the resistance or avoidance because it, the si this situation or this person or I should be different 'cause I should get more done. It should or this already should have been done.

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Oh, okay. So if, if I'm aware and I'm not manage measuring my performance. Only against the results, but also against the experience. The, if I, if you wish, we can name it, like really simply, the level of energy. 

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Mm. 

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Is this, is this conversation while we are talking and listening, do we have more or less energy?

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Sure. Yeah. 

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Oh. That just really starts to shift the whole experience of like, now going back to the circle, uh, this conversation about the relationship time to the time and what, what, what is actually possible to accomplish inside of the hours that I have available. So it is fulfilling on what matters to whom.

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Mm. Us 

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others, but also me. 

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Yeah, exactly. Wow. Yeah, and it's interesting too because we do see this a lot for people where, especially if they had been used to external time and like we saw this during COVID, for example. Where if they had worked in environments where there's an expectation, okay, you're gonna show up at work at X time and you're gonna work for a certain period of hours, and then you leave and you go home.

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And just even the containers of consistency that were external, and then for COVID when many people suddenly it was work from home and a whole different reality. We saw a lot of ups and downs of a sense of, well, I guess I'm working all the time now, and not being able to kind of manage and create a system that works.

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And we saw that spill into kind of sleep results. And one of the things that's really interesting about your model for how to support people. With doing more with that time that they have available is that clarity on what do we actually need to get done? Where are we putting this? It's goods in reality in some way, shape or form or calendars or, so maybe we could talk a little bit about what that method and model looks like that is unique from just like everyone's to-do list.

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Well, if I'm starting from the morning, so we can just really make it, uh, make this conversation like really practical for, uh, sure ourselves, like when I'm listening or talking, even right now if I'm imagining myself in the morning. 

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Yeah. 

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Uh, and I wake up and I see this whole to-do list or having already in my mind, uh, is that, oh, the first thing is to realize is that there will never be a moment throughout the whole day that I will get it all done.

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And what I'm talking about again, those are the results. Like all the stuff from to do is, maybe I get them done, but as far as the human experience in which I'm actually sitting, where there's nothing to do, nothing to think about will not happen. Because there is always one more thing. Even if you go for holiday, you're already thinking about what you're gonna do on holiday, but if you are already on holiday, you are thinking about going back to work and then only about the, you know, emails that will come over to your inbox.

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Right. So, uh, just recognizing that actually there, uh, it's okay and have a permission that today it's okay that I'm not gonna get it all done. 

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Mm-hmm. 

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So I don't have to carry the whole burden on my shoulders. Then I have a little bit of ease. And actually if peace of mind, which is clearly, uh, defined as, uh, how much I'm available to what I'm doing right now, 

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mm.

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Then I can actually choose from the list or whatever calendar or wherever I'm looking at outside of my head. Okay. So what are the things that actually I'm gonna be, uh. Completing, uh, not doing, because most of the, our to-do list, even if, if you look at your to-do list right now, most of the things that you have written there starts with a verb.

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Mm. Write this, do this. But if we have a little bit of distance and, you know, clarity and our nervous system is calmed down a little bit, uh, from what we are used to, then we can start to actually have a conversation about the accomplishments and what is gonna be actually completed by the end of the day.

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And then you start to realize is that, uh, you're, it's, this is not the game of starting lots of things, starting lots of new projects, rather choosing one and completing it. 

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Hmm. Yeah. 

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And leaving, leaving home. Then with the sense of accomplishment. Now talking about the method, there is no, by the way, there is not no rocket science, no secret.

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It's really simple, uh, throughout the day. So first of all, okay, I, uh, got this contextual, uh, element, like really settled, and I don't have a burden on my shoulders. I can breathe freely. In spite of fires happening already around me. Uh, then I sit down and I start to actually complete stuff. And when there is somebody coming to me or interruption comes, or it doesn't matter if it's from outside or from inside, then I just get it out of my head or just keep the my notebook to-do list and I'm constantly keeping stuff out of my head, even if I'm really anxious.

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Just write it down. What about. Without need to do anything with it. Or if I see, you know, that the, if there is a, the, what you call it, notification on the right of corner new email. Yeah. Or phone is buzzing. Sure. Uh, just do not touch it. Mm-hmm. And, uh, either write down or if there is, you know, mama calling and want something, just write, write down that.

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Okay. Get back to it later. But just get it out of your head and leave it on a piece of paper. And then there is a really simple. At the end of the day is decision making, uh, that needs to get done or throughout the day, which is, uh, really recognizing that, okay, if I'm gonna accomplish something or do something even in the future and I really want, I'm committed to it, then it will require certain amount of time.

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So without the time, there is no action, no results, period. So, uh, the decision lies into actually separating the things that will go into my calendar because I'm gonna do them and there is gonna be certain amount of time attached to it, certain amount of minutes, hours, or there is one list only where all the things, all the good ideas, new projects go back to.

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And, uh, if, uh, any CEO is listening, who is really creative now, there will, uh. When he starts to really think from this place. Okay. All the good new ideas, we will, we will have a conversation about it once a month or once a quarter, and then we will decide which one is gonna be implemented. People are gonna be kissing their hands.

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Mm, absolutely. 

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Rather than peeping people being completely overwhelmed. Like another idea, another, another, another idea. And nothing gets completed. Actually. 

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Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate your approach. Just even beginning with the context that we're never gonna get it all done, kind of almost freeing ourselves up from this false 'cause.

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We do see with surely insomnia, difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep early morning awakenings. There seems to be enough of a demographic or a group tendencies that we see with that sort of person that's dealing with that often high perfectionistic levels. And it's not for everyone, but it is enough that we have literature around a tendency to try to get it right, some black and white thinking and you know, kind of good and bad and all of that.

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And while applying that to their sleep, and I was one of these people as well trying to get it right and certainly that can spill into ways of being, of how we're showing up and what we're achieving day to day. So that makes a lot of sense to even begin with that as a, the context. And then throughout the course of the day, getting.

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Stuff out of our heads. 'cause we do see rumination patterns tending to be high when people are dealing with sleep issues. So just more and more training to just release and blow, you know, shorten the gas on what's being trapped up there and that overactive mind to get that out on paper. And I think you call it that capture tool, right?

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To just capture all of that. 

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Yeah. And well, we are addressing something really important here. You just named the word reactiveness. 

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Mm, yes. 

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Uh, the, the name of the game is, uh, to get from this reactive mode. Imagine like you're sitting on the bus somewhere on the back seats and you're riding on the bus and the life goes somewhere.

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The name of the game is to literally allow you to stand up safely, go to the front seat where the driver is, take the driver out, uh, and sit down, pass them the seatbelt, and choose where you will go. Mm, 

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yes. Love that. 

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And what and what, uh, that's metaphorically said actually in different words, being present.

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Instead of constantly reacting and having these moments when I promise to do something, but my level of ex, like experiencing myself as powerful is so low. Yeah. And so diminished because I cannot even do what I said to myself and go for a run once a week, what I promised to myself. Uh, then there is element of like, freedom, you know, that I'm constantly reacting.

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There is an email popping up. I just, uh, go and check it. Somebody comes and wants something or just pings me this WhatsApp message. I just respond right away. And then I'm just like, why the, uh, I responded, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, or somebody passes me on, on the highway and then I just go on hold automatically and it just, the end version of the reactiveness.

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Mm-hmm. Rather than having the millisecond to freedom to choose how I'm gonna. Actually react. Hmm. And the, the last thing is that the element of like being present is also actually about like, when I'm thinking about actually, uh, doing strategy for this quarter and I'm having my awareness available to this present moment so I can pay attention to the person I'm talking to about this.

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Without need to stand up and do something else or just wipe the, uh, you know, dust somewhere, make extra coffee, uh, and so on. But like, being really a hundred percent available to the document and possibly the person I'm talking to about, 

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I love that. Yeah. Which actually, just as a quick aside, made me think of, um.

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You had me do an exercise with my husband to do kind of a quarterly retreat and or you know, um, uh oh, 

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the offite? Yes. 

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Yeah, the offsite. Oh my gosh. That was so great. And I've told so many people about it. Now they've been doing it. And I say all this 'cause it's, you know, people might be like, well, what does that have to do with sleep?

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But I can tell you when I went through my period of insomnia, so much of it was a sense of. I was at this lost kind of crossroad state in my life, and a sense of not fulfilling on my purpose and not living from a place of passion and getting done something, getting something out into the world that would make a difference, and that was a real part of what had me go through that period of unre.

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Literally, and it was also a component of what got me back to sleeping was to kind of get my life on track with, uh, components of some of what we're speaking about here. And then your approach just takes it all to the next level. So maybe what we could do potentially is, um. We do have everyone ask, look at these four questions that we have identified around how are you managing your own sleep?

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And it will be kind of potentially interesting to see what you're doing there so that we might be able to pluck some wisdom of what, how you're thinking about your days and your nights that the rest of us might not be doing, if that works. 

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Yes, absolutely. So let's, let's start from there. 

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Yeah. Okay.

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Perfect. Okay, so our first question that we ask everyone is, what is your nightly sleep routine looking like right now? 

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First of all, I wanna raise the hand and say that I haven't figured it out. Like I don't have my life. Perfect. Uh, same. And this is, and this is, uh, but. It's super valuable to actually come from the place, uh, of being vulnerable about this.

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Yeah. Uh, so we don't come across like we already know 'cause it's not the true and the word where this conversation and, uh, my work is, uh, so valuable and interesting because it never ends. It's about the creating the conditions in which, in my case it's performance, but performance is happening alongside of the sleep and resting and recovering can happen.

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Now talking about the evening routine. Uh, like a few months ago I realized like I'm addicted to the phone. 

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Ah, aren't we all? Yes. 

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So my wife, what she did, she bought a little shelf that I screw to the wall and before I enter the bedroom, I have to leave the phone there. Mm. 

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So good. Uh, 

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so that's, that's the first thing.

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But like, as far as the, uh, the evening routines, I know for, for a fact that given that I've been working across different time zones, I cannot work, uh, past like seven o'clock. 

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Yes, 

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cannot. 

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Same, 

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uh, because then, uh, the nervous system just needs to calm down. And, uh, the mo and that's for many of you people, you like whoever is listening is, uh, that, you know, that experience when, uh.

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You should be talking to your kids or just read them the, read them the bedtime story and there is so much accumulated, there is so much suffering going on that, uh, only thing you can think of is just go to the bathroom or somewhere quiet and you just go and scroll the, the newspapers. 

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Yeah, 

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just to, just to wind down the nervous system for yourself first, because even the reading, reading the bedside science story feels like a suffering.

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Because it's like too much demand on your attention. So start with, uh, what we're, I'm gonna talk about a hundred percent about my myself. Okay. Uh, so first is stop working, uh, at certain hour. Then have a downtime, uh, like wind down time. And, uh, then as far as the bedside, uh, and, uh, having the opportunity to calm down really is to go to the bed.

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Uh, where there is no electronics, there is a off offline clock. That can, you can tap on it, but otherwise it's completely offline. Uh, I don't have a watch, uh, nor the phone. So I have to go through the eye of the needle with some of the evenings when, uh, the, the unrest and unsettlement, uh, is happening. And, uh, actually when I get through the die of the needle, then actually I find the peace with myself where most of the people actually be with themselves is actually the most dangerous experience.

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Uh, but having this like, uh, this side conversation. But, uh, I spent, uh, five days in the dark room just completely on my own, completely dark black pitch. And that was my realization actually. I already knew myself as being with myself as the most safe place to be with. Ah, 

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I love that. 

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So, so going into the night with that, uh, with, uh, creating that opportunity, and again, that's why I'm saying like, I don't have it to figure it out because it's, it's, it's a hustle to, you know, to do it.

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But if, if I succeed, couple of days, if I cannot like, stay there, just go to the bath, um, usually my wife sends me just go to sit down in the water, uh, and just let the, let actually the body. Physical body muscles calm down because that's actually ultimately the access, uh, to the nervous system to kill, calm down.

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Some people do. The meditation for me works like really, instead of walking around, uh, uh, just lie in the body or something. And there is one more thing talking about the capture pad. Uh, is that on the bedside table? One last thing besides the, the offline clock and the lamp, there is a little notepad with a pen and, uh, when.

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Brain is ruminating, right? It's constantly thinking about something, worrying about something. What there is to do is literally take the pen paper and write, jot it down. 

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Mm. 

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And one, uh, talking about the sleep, that's why I thought it's, it's really super valuable, um, is that people refer like reliably. No kidding.

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They can fall asleep faster. 

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A hundred percent Yes. And we have research to support that and, and it can sometimes, I think, go into the bucket of, oh, that's nice to have, or maybe that's like a soft skill or something and it's like, hmm, no, we've got actual research that there's something in that process of just getting that out.

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Almost acts as. Whether it's a declaration, whether it's just something about the, the physicality getting the out of our brains and into the world, and we really do see that it tends to be supportive of whether sleep onset, so ability to fall asleep with more ease, the ability to hopefully for many, minimize more wake up and or if they do wake up with improvements in their ability to fall back asleep.

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So yes, yes, yes, yes. Couldn't agree more. 

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If you imagine the brain is, uh, has, is predefined, uh, to manage the threat and, uh, uh, react and therefore react constantly. 

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Mm-hmm. 

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Uh, so if I write it down, if I take it outta my head, it's not in the system. In, in, that's not, doesn't live for the brain. That information about doing something doesn't live like a thread that I'm gonna fail tomorrow.

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I'm not gonna be good enough, da da da, da da. Uh, it leaves like, okay, now I know it's on piece of paper. When I wake up in the morning, it's gonna be there, so I know. Then I can take some action on it. 

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Sure. Yeah. 

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So the nervous system can calm down immediately and move and there is a direct shift, what we are talking about from reactiveness to the presentness.

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Mm, I like that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Kind of close in all those open loops that might be there swirling to close them one by one and just kind of get them onto that, as you say, capture tool. So, so beautiful. Did we miss anything else about your evening routine? 

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There's one thing, I haven't created the relationship with the meditation yet.

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Sure, yeah, I get 

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it. So, uh, I, I went to Wim Hof method, uh, which some people might know, which is basically the ice bath guy. And, uh, the core of the work is not the, actually the bath. It's so, but actually the breeding exercise and, and why I loved it, because it's like child mind, like meditation where I have to use the fingers to count, breathe in hold.

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And then breathe out until, you know, uh. Uh, so breathe in four, then, uh, hold for two and breathe out until eight. And I'm doing it even with the kids when I, when I have this, like one of those evenings when my brain is unsettled. And instead of just going, going grab the phone and do something on the phone, I just do practice this with the guys and the boy.

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I have twins, the 5-year-old. And I'm just doing it with them like, Hey boys, let's do now the breathing. And you wouldn't believe it's not, doesn't help to me only fall asleep, but also them. 

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Oh, I believe it. That's great. Is that just the method of like the counting? Is there a particular set of numbers that you count on the fingers or what do we see there?

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Breathing four until four, count four seconds. Uh, and then hold. Two, count for two and then breathe out until eight. The point is the nervous system calms down when the breathing out is longer than breathing in. 

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Mm. Love that. Great. And I love the physicality of that. That's a fantastic the just count that out.

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It right. It's so easy. Even those like four seconds, those two seconds is whatever to then, oh, we're off thinking about something else. So stays on task 

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and seek. And through this, I usually don't get to 10 circles. 

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I get it. Oh, that's amazing. How cool. Do you do any of the cold therapy too at any point or more the, the breath work 

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Morning.

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Morning is good for the, uh, for the body to do the, uh, to do the, uh, cold work because if you do it in the evening, then uh, the body starts to warm up and it's difficult, more difficult to fall asleep. So actually in the evening is good. Cold of hot shower. 

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You took the words right outta my mouth. Beautiful.

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I love that. And then actually that perfectly leads us into what might your morning sleep routine look like with the idea that how we start our day can impact our sleep. The 

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key is to sleep enough. 

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Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. It takes a little planning 

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because, uh, like if I go to sleep, that's why the winding down is the key.

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It's not the how I'm gonna wake up or what I'm gonna do in the morning. It doesn't make any difference. Uh, if I'm exhausted in the morning. It's like it is worse than being on drugs. 

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A hundred 

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percent. 'cause there is no willpower, no discipline, nothing. Everything goes out the window. Not to mention that, uh, those twins, uh, 5-year-old, yeah.

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They come, uh, six 30 reliably. Yeah. And then the whole, the whole morning goes out of the window. Uh, so, uh, I'm using actually the mornings for those micro, uh, routines to build up like new ones like breeding, because. There is set of activities one has to do, get up from the bed, right? Then, uh, put the sleepers on.

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So what, what do I associate, uh, the putting the slippers on with? Oh, when, then I go and brush my teeth. Okay, so what do I associate the, uh, the brushing the teeth with? So, and then I'm usually trying the new things. It's usually with something with the breathing, uh, or just, you know, getting centered or do some stretching, like literally the physical things.

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Oh, a hundred percent. I love that. 

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To wake up, wake, wake up the body because inside of that, again, the nervous system follows, 

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sure. 

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Rather than trying to navigate my thoughts and emotions. 

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That's great. 

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Which is be between us impossible. 

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Yeah, exactly. Yes. I know. And I think so many people are like, well, if I do more affirmations or if I do this, then you know, those thoughts will change.

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And it's like, hmm, good luck. 

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No. And you, and that where that's where the key sleeping is the key. Uh, like, uh, like when I'm working with people, it's just useless, literally useless. That's where we are starting, uh, to work with people on setting up the routines that will actually enable them to get recovered.

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Sleeping and recovery during the day is the key without, you know, most people, they come, I wanna be more productive at work, okay? But we do, we talk about the work at all. We need to first recover your body physical and. Little child, if you wish, that will actually allow the, uh, you to perform consistently going forward, rather than give you more to do because you already have an app.

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Yeah, exactly. That's so good. 

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And by the way, for most people, this first bit to actually, uh, wake up to the fact that you haven't recovered and now you haven't slept, no wonder that you're just constantly gr doing the same things over and over, even though they're not working. I just realized that I'm so excited and I usually just speak too fast.

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Yeah, I love it. No, it's so good. It's, it is so true. It's so transformative. 'cause you know, we'll see people too with like productivity masters and they say all these different things and you can get these supplements and nootropics and blah, blah, blah, blah blah. But like stepping over the power of sleep to even have a shot at being productive.

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So, so, so great. Love that. Anything else we missed in your kind of morning sleep routine? 

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I've been listening for some time, Andrew Huberman, and he's talking all the time about the sun, getting the sunlight into the eyes. I don't have enough background and I'm not even competent talking about this, but there is some magic to it, uh, just to get out for five minutes and I wish that I do this more.

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Honestly, that would be something that I would like to expand more just to get out with the tea or just. Just to be out there and just, uh, let the, let the, let the nature come talk to me. 

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Oh, totally. Well, if you want, I'm giving a talk in, uh, a couple weeks and I have to do some prep for it. So the whole talk is about the power of light dark.

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So, and I have to prep oh, a few times. So I can do one custom just for you. I have a whole background on the power of sleep and light, so Yes, yes, yes. Love that you pointed to that. 'cause that's really one of the big components that we point to that can measurably move the needle from the moment we wake up, is having that consistency with that sun.

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I love that you pointed to the magic of that 'cause it truly does. I think fall in the domain of magic. 

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Something, uh, to address, uh, like for, for a lot of people that might developed is this element of like, I haven't, I haven't done enough. I cannot take a rest, I cannot do the exercise, especially for people with kids because I don't wanna leave my wife, uh, to struggle with those kids.

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I should be constantly up and running and doing, being responsible for them or whatever. But actually, uh, what we've learned with my wife over the last half a year-ish is that after the period, constantly like. Doing this, uh, and then getting exhausted in the evening, uh, not having enjoyed a bit of the day.

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Sure. Realizing that actually if I go out actually, or if I go and take a nap in the afternoon over the weekends, the boys don't mind. 

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Hmm. 

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They're fine. 

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Yeah. 

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And when they are in the environment where the adults are present, they actually get, uh. Calmer as well. 

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Mm-hmm. 

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And it's easier to meet their needs.

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Sure. 

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Which is usually one of the, either attention or the power. Once they exercise that because adult was uh, present and us, then they're, then they're fine. And they can go out. They can go away and play for a bit on their own. Again, rather than being on your neck all the time. 

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Yeah, that exactly. Wow. I love that too.

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Just finding those ways to have that workability for yourself and for your wife, et cetera. And leveraging just the power of even that quick reset, that nap midday or what have you, and making that work for you and not being at the effect of other people in your home or what have you. 

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Or just do the stretch or the ex like, yes, the simple, simple things like what we are talking about.

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Sleep. Take a nap. Uh, do this little bit of stretch or take a break. 

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So good. Yeah, we hear that a lot too, where people are like, I can't possibly take a break. And yet we see it to, to your point, that often that can boost our productivity, believe it or not. So that's great. Okay. And then, uh, third question would be, what do we see on your nightstand?

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And I think you already did a pretty beautiful job. Um, was there anything we missed that we might see there? 

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No. The, the lamp. Uh, that, uh, is warm light. Mm-hmm. I dunno if it matters. Oh, totally. But that definitely, the, that cannot be the, the, the second thing is the, uh, offline clock. Uh, and the third thing is, the third thing is that is reliable.

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It's also important. I, I'm sure, uh, most of us remember the parents, uh, clock that was, uh, you know, the winding one one and it was not working. Usually they don't wake people up. Yeah. So not that one. Uh, so we have just like the one that actually is reliable. And the third thing is capture pad. And I find, uh, valuable for myself is the element of like the eye cover.

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Mm. And this is just maybe the specific to me, but, uh, I can sleep, if there is a noise around me, I can fall asleep easily. But 1, 1, 1 thing that I'm, uh, finding more challenging is the light. 

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Oh, sure. Yeah. 

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So we have, we have, uh, the blackout blinds, but when I put. Sorry. Uh, when I put the, the eye cover, it's way more fun to faster to fall asleep than I can do the mm-hmm.

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On the fingers. 

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Yes. That's great. I love that. Okay. Good call outs. And then the last question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to the management of your sleep? Or, you know, set another way. Biggest aha moment in managing your sleep. 

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In past it was the eye cover, but recently it's this whole conversation that I'm just sharing right now.

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We've been talking about this, about the downtime. Yeah. And having the opportunity to rec, reconnect with what, uh, what has been, uh, happening. Uh, because sooner I do it, or sooner I give myself permission to be with myself. The less of the thoughts and feelings to process during the sleep. 

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Mm. Yeah. I get that.

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And I, and I would be willing to bed. Because you are having, uh, you know, all the, uh, gadgets, uh, you're talking about and how you can measure this stuff. 

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Mm-hmm. 

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That I would be willing to bet that the, that those gadgets would, uh, prove this hypothesis actually. Uh, right. 

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Yeah. Like 

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valid not right, but valid.

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Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. It, I think we take for granted the fascinating components of the fact that our brains go from this awake often kind of in this beta brain, this crazy, all kinds of thinking and processing and activity to go from that state that we need a runway to. Be able to kind of transition to get to this rich, deep delta sleep that is so relaxed.

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It doesn't just go from upstate to this downstate. So really wise to have enough of that runway, 

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but I just really, uh, just got present to how much, uh, compassionate, uh, we need to be with ourselves, especially in this transition period because we can perform, we have and of real power discipline. 

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Sure.

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Most the people that I know, at least there are, they don't have a problem with this. Uh, if they cannot keep their word to themselves, they can do it with others. 

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Yes. Yes. 

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So, so we can perform almost to the point when we go to bed. 

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Mm-hmm. 

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Then most people don't have a problem to go to sleep or somehow fall asleep.

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Yes. We have extremes where it's already the issue, then the pills or some, uh, you know, your services kicks in. Mm-hmm. Uh, but actually most people are somewhere in between. Not having, uh, enough compassion with themselves to actually connect, reconnect again with themselves and with others. Because it's, it's also when I'm talking to my wife before to sleep, by the way, this is the biggest, best therapy, uh, 

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totally 

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for, for, for winding down in that offline environment without the stimulus.

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If I say something funny, she's gonna ask you not know. 

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Yeah. 

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Uh, and, uh, but that's where the beauty of connection is actually happening. Uh, and ultimately we are getting present to the present moment. Connected to the present moment. 

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I love that. Oh, that's so cool. 

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Couldn't come up with a better, uh, better conclusion, right?

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Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's getting me present right now, so that's beautiful. It's very meta. Very cool. Okay, so for people listening that have maybe identified that this is an area for them to improve on and time management. Just getting connected to this whole world of time as you were pointing to, what would be some of the best ways for them to follow you, work with you, be a part of your world, all that?

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Well, the first thing before doing anything, before doing more. 

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Yeah. 

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And reaching out to me or anyone else, the first thing is to actually take it, uh, take a moment and take a deep breath ah, and, and, and slowly breathe out because there is nothing wrong with any of us. 

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Mm-hmm. 

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Uh, and then. When I see that, oh, something, some interesting conversation would be valuable, or I would like to shine the light at some area of my life that is, that I haven't really done before and El would elevate, uh, my performance or create more opportunity for myself, be more present and connect it to myself and others.

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Then, uh, just find my, find my name on LinkedIn is probably the easiest. 

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Okay. Okay. And we'll make sure to put that in the show notes too. And everyone gets the nice spelling and the whole thing so that 

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Exactly. 

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Yes, exactly. So we'll make sure that's all available. But I just really wanna thank you so much.

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Speaking of time for you, taking the time to share your hard one wisdom in this area. And you know, can really make a difference for so many people's. Made a difference for me and excited to have people be a part of this conversation and the work that you're doing because I know it's really can move the needle.

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I hope that this gave opportunities for people to transform their relationship with their time. 

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Yes, exactly, exactly. And as you said too, and like setting it up for the knowledge that we're never done, we're always improving and shifting and changing. But to have this in the background, to build that skillset of time management and feeling really proud of the, some of the accomplishments that we've had by the end of the day.

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Um, I feel like there's a real system in place. It's just such a gift. So really appreciate all the work you do. I have you top of mind every day when I have my own little capture pad, so it's really fantastic. Hi Lisa, just checking out your work. 

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Thank you. Privilege, privilege to have this conversation. 

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Oh, well thank you so much, so grateful, and keep doing all the work you're doing.

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You've been listening to The Sleep Is a Skill Podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet. Fun Facts. I've never missed A Monday for over five years and counting, and it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep.

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