266: Meredith Oke, Host of the Quantum Biology Collective & Non-Profit Founder: How Your Light Environment Might Be Destroying Your Sleep Quality

 Welcome to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman, and I am the founder of Sleep Is a Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex-sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.

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Each week, I'll be interviewing world-class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian-aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and, by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before

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What if the biggest thing disrupting your sleep is something you barely think about? Today, we're joined by Meredith Oak, host of the Quantum Biology Collective Podcast, who went deep into the sleep rabbit hole after years of chronic fatigue. Her journey led her to a powerful realization light, not just habits, may be the missing link in sleep and energy.

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We dive into circadian rhythms, light exposure, and simple shifts that can dramatically improve sleep. From making sleep a family value to creating practical real-life routines, this conversation brings big concepts into everyday action. If you are tired despite doing everything, quote-unquote, "right," tune in now and start aligning your life with how your body is designed to function And welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast.

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I say this every recording, I know, but I truly am really excited for our guest today. It feels like a long time in the making. Just have been such a fan of your work and excited to hear more of your journey with sleep. So Meredith, thank you for taking the time to be here. Mollie, it's so fun to be here.

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I'm so glad we're finally doing this. Yeah. And yeah, when you were on my podcast, it was a huge hit, so I'm- Oh ... super happy to have another conversation with you. Me too. Me too. And I know before we hit record, we were talking about, you know, different ways to help support the listeners and really walking away with some kind of practical things that they can start to bring into their life, and that's really one of the things I'm struck by with your sharing is just how you've really taken this information, it can be some big concepts, and then made them workable in your life.

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So we're gonna get there, but before we do, maybe a little bit about how you c- even came to be so, you know, entrenched and fascinated in this world of, dare I say, quantum biology, circadian rhythm, uh, the whole spectrum. So share a little bit about that background. So probably the way a lot of non-scientists get into this world was through sheer, uh, necessity, because I had what I realized way later was chronic fatigue.

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At the time, I was just more like, "What the hell is wrong with me? Why am I so tired all the time?" Um, and that journey started me down a path where I was like, "Okay, um, I'm just tire..." You know, it's like I went through the whole thing. I'm sure a lot of your audience has gone through some version of this, right?

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It's like, "Oh, I'm really tired 'cause I have young children. Oh, I'm really tired 'cause I'm really busy. Oh, I'm really tired because of this." And everyone's like, "Yeah, of course you're tired all the time. Of course you're tired." And then one day, it hits a point where you're like, okay, like after my third baby, I was literally...

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Like I remember walking down the sidewalk and needing to use all of my willpower to like get one foot in front of the other. Was like- Oh, wow ... okay, you can take another step. Take a deep breath, right? And I was like, I'm not at the end of a marathon. I'm just walking down the street from the subway, right?

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Like, what, what is happening? Um, so I did a lot of the, a lot of the things. I, uh, looked at my food. I did some supplement protocols, some digestive protocols. I went to an acupuncturist. I did kind of the things that were in like my, like the, the standard wellness wheelhouse. And, uh, it helped a little, but it would s- you know, and th- but it, but I was still sleeping 10 hours a night and waking up exhausted.

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And I was like- Mm ... what the actual what? Like- Yeah ... it takes a lot of organizing to set aside 10 hours for my sleep. 100%. Why is it not- Not with a preschooler ... that like I should at least feel refreshed for when I get up, but I wasn't. And then I was started to understand it was 'cause my sleep was low quality- Mm

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because I didn't understand about light. Hmm. So I started to go down that rabbit hole of how important light is to our sleep, which led to circadian rhythm, which then led to the underlying, um, drivers of circadian rhythm, which take you into the quantum world, and I was like, "What?" Yeah. "Why doesn't anyone know this?

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Like, why, why?" You know, it, you, it's a sort of a s- scientific consensus amongst circadian biologists that LED light bulbs should come with a warning label, "Do not use after sunset." Yeah. And yet- Exactly ... we have no idea. So I started a podcast Yeah, you know, to, to get it out there, 'cause it's just crazy that we don't, that we, this isn't common knowledge.

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Yeah. You know? Preach. At least the basics, right? Like, any, any person knows the basic difference between junk food and real food, right? Like, it's not... That is a- Yeah, 100% ... you just know. It's just common knowledge. So I think we're on the same page, Mollie, to, like, get some, make s- make more of the sleep stuff more common knowledge.

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Exactly. And you know, it's interesting. I've noticed too where often when I might share about the importance of light, dark, kinda balancing your days and nights, and people might hear that in a first glance, like, "Oh, I do all that. I do all that." But then when you actually dive in a little bit deeper- Right

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and it's nothing against, you know, it's not like they're being malicious or something. Like, they, uh, beli- "Well, you know, I, I've duck outside for a couple minutes, and I heard something about morning sun, so I do that. And I, you know, I dim the lights a little bit," but thinking that that's the whole story.

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And so maybe curious what you were struck by beyond sort of that at first glance, you know, that reckoning of, "Oh, I'm, I'm there. Those things are check, complete." What did you start discovering that then you started putting in to kinda change how your days and nights looked? Yeah, so I did that exact journey.

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Yeah. I remember I heard a podcast where someone talked about, uh, you know, the importance of sunlight and s- and sleeping in the dark, and I was like, "Okay, yeah, that makes sense." Yeah. And I did exactly what you just said. I made a few minor tweaks- Sure ... and forgot about it. Yeah. And then it was, like, a year later where I s- was still really struggling.

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Mm-hmm. And I had this moment in my kitchen where I had just ordered, um, a spiralizer that was to, like, turn your zucchini into spaghetti 'cause, uh, 'cause I was like, "I guess I need to be ketogenic." I don't know if zucchini is even keto. But anyway, I was, like, all about the food 'cause that's what all of the messaging- Right

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at that time was. Sure. This was, like, pre-2020. It was like, "Food, food, food." Mm-hmm. And so I'm like, "Okay, I will order a spiralizer," and the, and the blo- the, the, the blogs were like, "Your kids will love it. It's just like spaghetti." Sure. I'm like, "My kids will not love this." Yeah. They want actual spaghetti, and I was like, I'm not, like, great in the kitchen, so- Yeah, same

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the food thing was really hard for me. Me too. So I'm, like, I'm, like, staring at this box- Oh, God ... with this spiralizer, and I just had this moment. I was like- There has to be something else. Like, there has to be... I can't just keep micromanaging food and ordering gadgets off the internet to make my food different- Yeah

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for the rest of my life. Like, what? And I flash back to that interview that I'd heard- Mm ... about light, 'cause I just, I like took a moment, and I was like, "Okay, Meredith, like, clear the decks." Mm. "Breathe. There must be something I'm missing. There must be." Yeah. I flashed to that interview, and I was like... And this time it wa- it wasn't just something that showed up at my feet and I gave it a listen.

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This time I was like, "Oh." And I went back and listened again and was like, "Oh." Yes. "Oh, God, I have totally underestimated-" Hmm ... what's going on with this light, and I have not been doing it all the way that it needs to be done in order to really regulate my circadian rhythm, and hence every other biological process in my body."

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Wow. Okay, so that zucchini spiralizer sent you spiraling down the rabbit hole. Yes, totally. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're, we're grateful for that moment. That's amazing. Yes. Okay. So for the listener that is saying, "Okay, yeah, I know. I've heard about this light business," maybe just sharing a little bit about what you discovered, and enough to really start diving into this with such velocity and creating pathways for people to really become more fluent and understanding this world a bit more.

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What do you see at the crux of, like, how could this light/dark thing help with your chronic fatigue and your sleep, all of it? Like, what are we seeing there? Yeah, so what I, what I came to realize is that these aren't, like, pro-tip health hacks. Mm-hmm. This is fundamental to our biology. Like, our biology runs on light and dark.

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Yeah. And that's just it. And we've been adding all of these extra things into our lives, the LED light bulbs- Yeah ... the screens, the iPads, the phones, like all of these things, without understanding that. Hmm. And so- I bring it back again to food, 'cause it's like, it's Halloween, your kids go trick-or-treating, they get all this crap.

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You're like, "Okay, you're gonna eat crap for a few days, like that's fine." Yeah. "And then we'll go back to eating regular food." Yeah. 'Cause you, like we know that that's junk. With light, it's like I was eating Halloween candy for dinner every night, and didn't even realize it, because it was the light coming off my screen, like turning on those LED bulbs.

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Mm. Looking at my phone. There was a period of time where, um, the, those, the iPad started getting all those apps where you, like would have like an entire library, and you would pay like $9 a month and have access to every book in the world, and I was like, "Woo!" And so there was a period- Love it ... where I was reading off my iPad before bed- Mm-hmm

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which I hadn't, didn't used to do. Sure, yeah. And of course, the chronic fatigue would get way worse, but I wasn't connecting it. Yeah. So for me, like the big aha, it wasn't any specific thing, although there were lots- Yeah ... of things I did. Yeah. But the big aha was like how much this matters. Couldn't agree more.

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And just how pervasive, like if it's, you know, a spiderweb, like at its core, bringing about these changes that are largely free and just behavioral in nature, the spidering into so many aspects of our health and wellbeing, and often maybe unexpected for many. Like you pointed to that, you know, scientific consensus of all the, these circadian scientists, you know, pointing to warning labels on light bulbs at night.

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And of course, you know, at first glance, people may be like, "Oh yeah, I bet that affects your sleep." And it does in that laundry list, but then also like fertility, diabetes, uh, mental health, our cortisol levels, our, our waistline. The list is really surprising of how many things get impacted just by this simple piece, and that's just in the night side of things, let alone how much light we're getting by day.

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So yes, echo, echo on how much it's the foundation. And so did you start to see changes to your sleep or your energy? What did that all look like? Yes, I did. It, and it made a huge difference. Yeah. Um, and then it, it still went up and down a little, because there are, you know, like there was like a lot of upheaval in my life, and we moved, we moved continents, and we did all these different things.

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But when I w- worked through that and got to a place where I was like, "This is gonna be my priority," and I went outside every morning for a big, long walk, and I cleaned up my evening light, and I s- slept in a pitch dark room. Um, and I ordered, you know, I had blue blockers for when we wanted to watch a movie or whatever, and that absolutely moved the needle.

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Um- And the, there were certain things that happened right away and certain things that took longer. But I noticed that, like, I was able to get through the day without needing to lie down on the floor Oh. That could take that next step- Yeah ... without, like, harnessing all your might. Amazing. Yes. And it wa- it was gradual, but, like, every year since I've started doing this, it's gotten, it's gotten a little bit better.

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Mm. And, you know, I think like sometimes people are like, "Oh my God, like another, another thing to worry about. Like another thing- Yeah ... on my plate. Like another thing that's bad for me." Yeah. And it's like, well, yeah. Yeah. However, you know, it just... It's n- as you were just saying, like these... It's relatively simple compared to- Yeah

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you know, having to get surgery or being on medication for the rest of your life or having- Yeah ... weekly injections or... You know, these are relatively simple things. It does take a little bit of, of, uh, bandwidth to focus on while you're implementing them all. Mm. But once they're implemented, life is opened back up again.

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Yes. Um, energy is opened back up again, and that's where I really started to see like, I think of, I think of quality sleep as a family value. Yeah. Say more about that because one of the things that we'll see... So, in our programs we'll often have people send over images of the space, and sometimes videos, of the space that they're spending a lot of time in before bed, and then their bedroom space.

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And as we discuss bringing more kind of circadian-aligned lighting options, often the pushback that we might get is, "Well, my husband won't go along with that. My kids are, are gonna be an absolute no to that," et cetera, et cetera. Like, how have you helped to bring this in as like a family ethos? Yeah. So it, it, it can be a gradual move.

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It does depend how old your children are. Sure. A lot... And a lot of it, uh, you know, comes back to even a step, you know, a step deeper than that which is- Okay ... how, how are your relationships with all of those people- Mm ... in the first place? So true. Uh, you know? Yeah. If it's like a period in your marriage where everyone's a little tense, like that's probably not gonna be the moment to roll out, to roll out the lighting changes or roll out- A rough time in history

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the blue blockers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I do, I do think there is that piece. Yeah. Um, and for me it's... it was a, it was about education, right? It's like there is a physical element to this, right? Mm-hmm. Like, if we don't get good sleep, um, our bodies can't repair themselves and we're gonna start to fall apart.

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There is a mental el- element to this. There's the neurotransmitters. We're gonna be in a bad mood all of the time, right? And there's, I think for, for me there's a spiritual element as well. Mm. Which is like we have... We are keepers of our biology, and our biology is in many ways very sacred, and getting quality sleep honors that.

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So to me it's like tying, tying in quality sleep to the existing values in your family, because this enhances them, right? Mm-hmm. It, it's up to me as a mom to, to do what I, whatever I can to get good sleep because that affects my mood in the morning, and I'm setting the tone of the day for my children with my mood.

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Sure. Um, and so we s- I started to bring up those conversations. I would, you know, my husband likes the research. Mm-hmm, yeah. So I, for him, I would, like, send him papers. Oh, great. Uh, you know- Yeah ... like, and you know, as you know, in, in pubmed.com there's, like, I think, like, 85,000 papers on circadian regulation and- Yes

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on various topics, right? So if, so it was, like, finding what worked for that person and connecting- Mm-hmm ... in that way. Great. Um, and then for the kids, I'm like, "I'm the adult, and this is, these are the, these are the new rules." Yeah. "If you would like to play Fortnite, you must wear orange-tinted blue blockers."

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"If you don't wanna wear them, that's fine, but you may not turn- Yeah ... that screen on." Yes, love that. And didn't you say before we hit record that you've got, like, a little spot- Yes ... right? Okay. Yes, so I have, we have, um, this is our gno- it's a gnome. I think it's a- Come on ... Christmas decoration, but I like forest creatures all year round.

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Yeah. And there is a selection of blue blockers in here. These are actually mine. The children are not permitted to wear those ones. Oh, yeah. Those are the more- Those are the, those are the nice ones. Yeah. I love them. Yeah. But I have from here, I think these are, like, Spectra 479, which are the less... You know, they're, like, $30 or something.

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Sure. Yeah. Great. So every year I order more 'cause people step on them or the dog chews them- Uh-huh ... or whatever. Yeah. And yeah, we just have a little basket, and it's like, okay, family movie night. Yeah. Everyone pulls out a pair. Fortnite time- Oh, love ... or whatever game they're playing, they all come and they pull out a pair.

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And, uh, that's just how it is. Yeah. That's how it's going. I love that. Yes. Yeah. We need more parents that are bringing that to the table. That's fantastic. Yeah, and it's starting to permeate the kid culture too. Like, my son will be like, "Oh, like, one of the gamers he follows on TikTok's, like, talking about gaming glasses."

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Yes. And he's like, "Are these good? Can I order these?" And they're, they're, like, almost clear. I'm like, "No, those are not good," but I'm glad the conversation's starting. It's happening. Yes. I know, right? We see so much of that, the, the clear and the yellow or what have you. So yes. Okay, so for the listener, making sure that they're not saying, "Oh, fine, I'll do this, but then I'm just gonna get the clear ones or what have you," making sure that those amber or red light- Yeah, like, they have to be amber, which is annoying to the children 'cause they're like, "Mom, it's like so..."

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You know? Like- Yes ... they gotta be orange, right? Yes. So my, we, when we go places at night, my teenagers are like, "Are you gonna wear those glasses?" I'm like, "Yeah, I am." They're like- ... "Oh, okay, then I'm gonna not go." Like, so there was something at one of their schools. Yeah. You know, she's just like, "I don't think I can sit with you if you're gonna wear those."

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I'm like, "Okay." So I would, I wear, like, the daytime ones, which are a little less obvious. Sure. They're not as good- Yeah ... but I'm like, "Okay." Yeah. Well, compromises are key. I'll compromise for today. Quill this quota, yeah. You don't have to- But- ... disown me at back to school night. Yes. I'm standing for a day when it's actually, like, the cool signifier to have those on.

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Yes. So it's one day. One day. Yes. Right now we might not be there, but we can hope. No, we're getting there. Yeah. 'Cause I did, I wore these to, like, a school board meeting, and so I was just in the audience listening or they were, like, doing some boring PowerPoint presentation- Sure ... at, like, 8:00 at night. So I wore these, like, aviator orange-tinted, and then I met someone a few weeks later and she was like, "I feel like I know you.

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Oh, you were the one in those glasses sitting in the front row- Ah, a bit of celebrity status ... at the meeting." I'm like, "Yes, that was me." See? We could make this a lifestyle, folks. I love it. Yeah. Amazing. You gotta just own it. Yes. Exactly. I love that. Uh, well, and s- since we're on the topic. Okay. There... So because there are lots of really cute styles right now for these- Yeah

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BluBlockers, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, we didn't fully explain why we wear them, but your audience probably knows. Yeah. Right? Like, to, to... When you're in front of screens or bright light at night, you wanna wear that. So when I first, first got into this back when I was kinda like, "Yeah, I'll kinda do it, kinda not," I don't- Yeah

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there weren't as many options. The first company I knew of was, like, Ra Optics with Matt Merica, but I don't even think that had launched yet, so I was on the internet trying to find something. Yeah. And this, this is what we ended up with. This is when the kids were like, "Hard pass, Mom." Yeah. Look at these.

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Oh, God. Oh, yeah. That's what I got too. I had- Do you remember these? I, I remember 2016. Yes. Yeah, that was my first purchase. Uh-huh. They're like safety goggles. That's right. Uh, Consumer Reports gave them the, the check. Yep, they are effective. They are all of, like, nine bucks or whatever the heck they were.

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Yeah, yeah. And, you know, but got the trick done. I know. There was a big void for a while there. Yes. I mean- Yeah ... God bless all those entrepreneurs- Yeah ... who stepped in and, and made cute - Yeah, cute options for us ... made them cute. Love it. That's amazing. Okay. So, so we're starting to infiltrate this into the, you know, family group, and then, um, just taking a stand and helping to educate, and not just saying, like, "Oh, we're just doing this for no reason."

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We, we have lots of evidence to support the reasons that we're actually taking the steps to do that. And to your point, while on the front end it might take a minute to set up our environment and get all the lights and whatever, and start maybe changing some of our behaviors, maybe we're whatever, eating outside, or we're doing this, that, and the other.

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But once we start to make that part of the norm, then it can kind of be more automatic. So for anyone listening, this might be a nice time to kind of start to just transition to how you're actually, you know, just kind of a day in the life of seeing how you're managing your own days and sleep. But before we get there, is there anything...

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I know this is a huge topic, but is there anything that we left out that is important to share on maybe your journey or things that you've discovered that can make a difference for people with their sleep? Yes. I think the, the most important thing is to v- to realize that every little change matters. I mean, we talked about how you have to really do a lot of them to have it add up, but any, any start is good.

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And the mo- the most common thing that I hear, um, from people who are not super into this, who, you know, listen to your podcast or my podcast, they'll say things like, "Oh, I'm just so overwhelmed with, you know, changing every light bulb in my house." Um, and it's like, okay, so don't do that. You, you know, just, those bright white lights, just leave them off.

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Mm-hmm. They turn off, leave them off after dark. Yeah. And maybe buy a h- you know, a few light bulbs. I'm sure that's, like, what you were encouraging- Exactly ... you know, your clients to do, right? And, and, and just do something that feels manageable. And then to check what's going on internally when you feel yourself holding back, right?

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Like, I know some people who are like, "Yeah, I was gonna order blue blockers, but I don't know." And it's like, I don't know. Like, you know, 'cause you're looking around at the outer world. No one else is doing it. Not that many people are talking about it, unless they're, like, on health Twitter, or they listen to Andrew Huberman or something, you know?

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Yeah. Like, it's not a, it's not a conversation the way fitness and nutrition are. And so what I just wanna remind people is that we're at the very beginning of understanding this. Mm. You can go first because it really, how whatever your mind is telling you, like it doesn't matter because you're not seeing this wisdom being reflected back to you very often Just remember, like, it does matter.

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It is so fundamental, and we've just gotten out ahead of ourselves with our ability to create technology and our lack of paying attention to our biology. Yeah. We've just really gotten totally out of balance with it, not... And it's up to us to rein it back in. Like, nobody, there's not probably gonna be, although with RFK, who knows, but, like, a big announcement about this.

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We just have to figure it out ourselves, and we have to take responsibility for ourselves. We have to... You know, I used to think if I just kind of did the basics, you know, like 20 years ago, I'm like, "I'm just gonna have, start a family and do the basics and not get all crazy about health and wellness- Mm-hmm

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like some of those psycho obsessive moms." Yeah. "I'm not gonna do it." Yeah. Well, it turns out, like, we kind... You don't have to be obsessive, but we do- Yeah ... have to pay attention. Sure. And we do have to go out of our way to find information, especially about certain topics. Hmm. So when your mind says, "Oh, does that really matter?"

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I'm here to say, yes. Yes. Yes, it does. Yes. And I love that, too, that those little tweaks can make all the difference in helping to make this feel approachable and achievable. Exactly. It's like one light bulb. Like, let's just start with one light bulb, you know. You can get some of those for whatever, 10, 20 bucks online, and it can show up in, you know, 24 hours or something, like, at this point.

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So very easily we can just at least start to get in action and start to have, like, a snowball effect, and then very quickly start to see the immense difference that we'll feel, the subjective experience of being in an environment that is pulling for that, those signals for sleep. And kind of like what you were saying, too, like, when people will feel maybe overwhelmed, it's like, "Ugh, one more thing," I hope that one of the things that can start to snowball is that this light-dark duality to our days and nights can almost help act as a guide for what we should be doing.

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Not to put shoulds into the conversation, but from a rhythm perspective, to act in harmony with nature. And so that light, that bright, bright, bright light of nature can signal all the things that are upregulatory to a certain extent. So eating, moving, maybe that stressful conversation you gotta have or whatever, and you're doing all those things by day.

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And then the evening, once those lights that you spoke to and the blue blockers come out and all those things, we're shifting over into more downregulatory activities. So hopefully it can almost just fill in the gaps of, "Wait, what am I supposed to be doing right now?" When, you know, fasting, relaxing, and just let those things guide us potentially.

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Yes, because, you know, and that's a beautiful way to explain it. It's very intuitive, you know? Sure. Like, bright light, morning light. Yeah. Let's get up and go. Let's- Yeah ... raise our cortisol. Let's have the day. Exactly. What do we intuitively feel like doing when it's dark and it's in the winter and it gets dark earlier?

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Yeah. You know, we, we wanna chill. We wanna rest. We wanna go to bed early. And, um Yeah, like it's, it, it just makes sense once you start paying attention to it, and it's, you know, I have like a handful of people who are totally not in this world at all, but they, they're like, "All right, I'll buy BluBlockers, Meredith."

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Yeah. And every single one of them noticed a difference in her sleep, 'cause it was all women who did this- Yes ... that night. Like, that night, they put them on a few hours before bed- Mm-hmm ... and they were l- and they were, they said, "I felt better this morning when I woke up." Ah. It's amazing. Such a small tweak, you know?

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Yeah. And fairly affordable and achievable. It's great. Okay, so since you mentioned, too, the intuitive piece and how this can just kind of become a bit of this lifestyle, might be the perfect time to kind of see how you're managing your own sleep based on all this information that you've learned. I'm sure it's, uh, always dynamic and shifting and changing.

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But our first question that we ask everyone is what is your nightly sleep routine looking like right now? So I like to wind down early. Sometimes I do like, you know, to watch a show with my husband or my daughter. Sure. And so we just put those, we put those glasses on. Yeah. I think, you know, for parents, too, th- going back to having your kids watch TV, I mean, it sounds it sounds crazy for how we grew up- Yeah

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to be like, "What? TV is healthier." But honestly- I know ... because the screen is farther away from- Yes ... from the little faces. And more passive- It is, it is better ... like, they're not engaging- Yeah ... with it as much. Yeah. Yeah, and you're, you're farther from the light. You're farther- Yep ... from the EMFs and all of that.

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So- Sure ... I, you know, we're... It also seems crazy to be like, "Watching TV is old-fashioned," but you know, we- No ... sit back on the couch- Yes ... and have the TV over on the wall and put on the BluBlockers and like- Yeah ... get under a blanket. Yeah. Um, so I do, you know, I do do that a, a couple nights a week 'cause it's a really nice, relaxing thing.

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So- Yeah ... I tend not to be on screens unless there's something really urgent that needs my attention, which isn't that often, um, after dinner. Sure. Um, I try to go for a little walk after dinner. Mm-hmm. Uh, even if it's really short 'cause it's cold and dark now. Yes, exactly. I know. Um, and d- and not only to not go on the screen 'cause of the light coming out of it, but to not go on the screen because I do find it, like, activates a part of my mind that is more of my daytime mind, like figuring things out- Sure

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and answering things and working and la, la, la. And so it's almost like a, a shift in consciousness into, like, evening mode, where I'm like, "Okay, I don't have to think about anything. I don't have to worry about anything. I can just kind of let it all go." Yeah. Usually read before bed with, um, the little, you know, with the little red- Yes

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night light. Love that thing. Yeah. I have a slightly brighter red light bulb by my bed for getting ready and in the bathroom. Mm-hmm. Um, but for, like, those, that last half hour before sleep, everything is off except for this. Sure. And I read from a, a book. Yeah. A paper book. Another old-timey option, right?

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Yeah. Is that so ridiculous that's become the norm? Yeah, I love it. Okay. Yeah. Uh, then I make sure that all the blinds are down. I, I d- don't have anything in the bedroom that plugs in. Um, when I do need an alarm clock, we have, again, the old-fashioned kind with a battery and the tick, tick, tick. Love it.

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Tick-tock, tick-tock. Yeah, yeah. Uh, I have, like, tape over all the things, like fricking fire alarms. Like, who decided - Uh-huh, I know ... that you need to have lights on the fire alarm? Like, why? Why? Why? So I've, I even have light over that, and then- Yeah ... blackout blinds go down. Oh, fantastic. Heat goes off. Yeah, yeah.

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If it's really cold, I'll leave the heat on downstairs, and it- Sure ... it moves up enough- Yeah ... that we're not frozen in our beds. Great. But I, I turn the heat off in there as well. Oh, amazing. Yes. And I love how, too, earlier you'd mentioned with the changes in season, too, and kind of living in alignment with that, not fighting that, to support more of that added darkness at night as we kind of were designed for.

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So that's fantastic, too, that there's not that fighting against what's happening each season, living in alignment and harmony with that. So beautiful. Great. So then what might we see in your morning, quote-unquote, "sleep routine" with the idea that how you start your day could impact your sleep? So morning, the first, the first light is, comes from outside.

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So, um, depending on the season, I tend to wake up around t- Around sunrise. I will say during the summer, I do not wake up around sunrise- Sure ... 'cause it is so fricking early. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. I sleep- Totally ... through that like- Yeah ... no problem. Yeah. And days are so active in the summer as well, I feel- Right

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even extra tired. Totally. Uh, but like about, you know, nine months of the year, I tend to wake up, uh, maybe, you know, like right around sunrise just naturally- Mm-hmm ... which was never the case. Like, I was never a morning person. Ah, I know. Same. Um, it was like always needed an alarm, always. Yeah. And now I'm like, it's like you feel this like kinda tingly feeling in your body- Yeah

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and I'm like s- like half asleep, half awake, and I'm like, "Oh, okay." Like I don't even need to open the blinds. It's like I can tell that the day is starting 'cause I have, I can feel my body responding- Totally ... because I am so regulated. Mm. And it's really cool, especially for someone who spent most of her life not, not- Even conceiving that that could be possible.

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Oh my gosh. I plus one on that. That was just life-changing for me, and just, I didn't even think it was available to me, 'cause I thought- Yeah ... like, "Oh, I'm- There you go ... I'm a night owl. Like, that's how it is. Blah, blah, blah." Yeah. And just not realizing that we have such a say over in training all this. And it is one of those topics that I still see people, you know, really hold on, and this is r- like a controversial one in the sleep space of chronotypes.

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And while there may be a certainly, you know, just those, uh, genetic drifts or genetic tendencies to a certain extent, or preferences, we do certainly unequivocally see that, that light-dark piece of this, and our other circadian aligned behaviors. And from, and I know we didn't even truly get into the depths of the quantum s- piece of, of this.

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But those things can so drastically shift our sleep-wake cycle and rhythm. So you're an- yet another example of someone who's been able to massively shift that. Yes. And like, and you and I spend so much time around people who've integrated this. I- Yeah ... h- I have heard that story a lot. And people- Oh ... who were committed, committed night owls.

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Yeah. And it's like, okay, well, just, you know. Yes, exactly. Maybe you ... Tr- and, and then, yeah, it turns around and it turns out they're like, "Oh my gosh." Right? Like I now get- Yeah ... my best work done in the morning. Same. Yeah, exactly. And I used to be so justified and righteous about the fact that no, no, no, it's the nights are where I can really hone in and focus-

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and blah, blah, blah. And it was, you know, I had all the lights on and all the things. Yes. Yeah, of course. Like that makes the last- Yeah, and that's the other thing too, is like you can't actually know what your body wants to do when you have all the, like we have all the lights on- You can't, right ... and we have all the screens on.

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Yeah. Exactly. Is people, I hear too a lot, people are like, "I didn't know I was tired at 8:30." Exactly. 'Cause how would you? Like- Yeah. Yeah. When you're eating late or- ... your, your whatever, CrossFit workout gets done at 8:15 under blue light. Mm-hmm. And blah, blah, blah. You know, all those things. And the stressors.

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I always think it's so fa- I think of, we chat about that a little bit on, on your podcast, this new research around thought timing and how our thoughts exist on a circadian rhythm, and certainly have that rhythmicity to them. To your point, just at the precipice of just learning about how much of this happens in the background and often surprising areas of health and wellbeing.

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So beautiful. Okay. So anything we left out in your morning sleep routine? So morning, so I crack a window- Okay ... and then I go downstairs and walk the dogs in the morning- Good ... in the morning light. Um, depending how, what the s- morning schedule is, sometimes it's a five minute walk, sometimes it's a 15 minute walk.

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But I go outside and move around in that early morning sunlight. Um, drink a bunch of water. Um, if I'm taking any supplements, I'll take them, and then I'll eat breakfast, and then I'll have my coffee. Oh, yeah. So I will never give up my coffee. I love my coffee. Oh, cool. But I have it, I've been awake for at least an hour so that my body, that cortisol rise can happen naturally- Sure

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through the light. Through the f- through the light first, then the movement, then the food. And then I have, you know, my half decaf, and it's glorious. Totally, yes. Then I walk my daughter to the bus stop, back outside again. Yes, I love that. And I make my children walk to school or walk to the bus stop. If, if I do have to drive them, we crack the window in the car, right?

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Yeah. Just super simple things, right? Yeah. Like just rolling down, cracking a window when you're driving around, or cracking the, the sunroof- Mm-hmm ... can totally change your day. It's like- Amazing. Okay ... with a little button push. Exa- I know. It's so true. I know. I'll get into Ubers at different points. And often then people will be like, "Oh, is the temperature bad back there," or whatever it is.

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Then I go into the whole thing about like why would you turn- ... put down the window and the whole... Yeah, it's great. Okay. So then the third question would be what might we visually see on your nightstand or in your environment? I know you kind of spoke to some of that, but as if we missed anything. Yeah. Way too many books.

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Like piles- Yeah, okay ... and piles of books. And some of which I've read, some of which I've read part of. But I just, I'm like a bit of a junkie. I like to have access. Me too. And then the little, the little red nightlight. Mm. So whatever book I'm reading, I will clip it onto there. Um, I have... And then I have a lamp with a slightly brighter, as I was saying, like a slightly brighter bulb- Hmm

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to see in the bedroom before dark. Um, and that's about it. I do, I've sometimes take magnesium. I sometimes put on like, um, a sleep patch that... But those things are kind of secondary to the light and the darkness. Sure. Yeah. Great. Okay. And then the last question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to the management of your sleep?

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Or said another way, biggest aha moment in managing your sleep? I think the biggest aha moment was realizing just how important it is. Right? Like, whatever it is that gives life meaning- Yeah ... for you, it is supported by our sleep. Hmm. It's- Couldn't agree more. Y- you know, like, to, to n- to not take sleep seriously and to not do what we need to do to figure out how to, um, you know, get quality sleep, and I know different people have different challenges.

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You, maybe you have a newborn baby. Maybe you're a shift worker. Like, there's lots of different things that life can throw at us that will interrupt our sleep. But to understand how important it is and to do whatever it takes to, um, to support that is really a way of supporting our entire lives, our entire existence, or, like, what we're here to do on this planet.

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Like, we can't, you know... Like, to go super cosmic, like, I don't know why we all chose to incarnate in this moment, but whatever the reason is We need to be able to sleep to do it. Yes. I couldn't agree more, 100%. I'd imagine most people listening to this podcast are gonna completely echo and agree with you on that one.

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So crucial. And for people that are interested in following you, and also I know we didn't, um, dive in too much, but your help make available ways that people can go even real deep. They can go spiral down. That's the key, spiral rabbit hole- ... to really get up under some of these topics. So all the ways that they could learn more.

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Sure. Absolutely. And just one quick thing I wanna say, remind- Yeah, please. Please ... I reminded myself, like- Yeah ... my f- my first baby did not sleep, and then I had a friend whose baby really didn't sleep. Oh. And neither of us, m- you know, made this, made the effort to get support- Sure ... at night- Yeah ... um, with our babies.

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And we're like, "Oh, well, we can't afford it, and now we can't," you know? And it just seemed, it just seemed like we should be able to handle this. Yeah. And I don't have a ton of regrets in life, but I will say that not doing that, I think back and I'm like, "That, that was not a good choice," you know? So really if for, if there are, if you know anyone out there or you are a new mom or you know any new moms- Yeah

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truly support in any way possible that mom to, to get- Mm ... sleep and to get the support she needs, even if it feels like- Mm-hmm ... a financial hardship in the moment. Yeah. I do think, like, the seed of a lot of my mitochondrial dysfunction went back to choices like that throughout my life, so. Sure. Oh, I appreciate you- Take care

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sharing that. Yeah. Yes. Okay, and so yes, I'm the host of the Quantum Biology Collective Podcast, where we talk about sleep, we talk about light, we go down into the, to the quantum mechanisms underneath the circadian biology, um, as well as we're moving into the l- land of consciousness and- Um, you know, so once you go quantum, you're looking at your mitochondria.

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Our body are filled with mitochondria, and it turns out they're environmentar- environmental sensors- Mm-hmm ... picking up all of the frequencies in our, in our environment- Yeah ... in our home, in our world. So light being one of them, but also sound, also, you know, the Wi-Fi radiatio- radiation coming out of all of our devices, also our thoughts, also our emotions, the emotions of the people around us.

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Uh, so it's kinda crazy cool. Yeah. And then for, for people who, who are practitioners, who... Like health coaches, integrative physicians, NDs, we set up a nonprofit called the Institute of Applied Quantum Biology, and we have, um, a certification in there to go, if you wanna go all, wanna go deep and, like- Yeah

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layer on the quantum bio- like, biologic lens, lay that a- over your existing practice. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Just kind of gives a deeper way to understand the amazing work that you're already doing. Oh, wow. So great, so important, uh, and to provide, you know, kind of a place, 'cause I'm sure, my understanding from what you've shared too, it's like there's probably a lot of that sifting and trying to figure out, 'cause not everyone is talking about this, or certainly especially years back, so having to kind of piece together from different people and thought leaders, and so to have, like, one centralized place for people.

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Exactly. There's, like, really an infinite amount of information. Mm-hmm. So, you know, my background was in executive coaching, and I'm like, "Okay, how do we organize this information- Yeah ... to make it practically useful?" Yeah. Um, how do we organize this information so you can go in, work with a client, and see on that deeper level?

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Yeah. So important. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, thank you so much for sharing about that. Any closing thoughts beyond... And I appreciate what you said, too, for new parents, but any closing thoughts on the topic, the big topic, of sleep? What do you think of that? Anything for p- listeners? Yeah. I think, you know, I just, I feel like this is a really amazing time to be alive.

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Yeah. And sometimes when we go, we start down a rabbit hole, and it's, it's like, what? I can't believe all of these things that are ruining my health that I didn't know about. But the solutions are there. The support is there. The community, like there's lots of communities to, you know, to support you to work through it.

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And I think we're about to break through to, like, just a whole other understanding of ourselves- And so I do, I just wanna make sure that the, the underlying message is incredibly hopeful and inspirational for everybody. Ah. Anyone listening to this, you know, anyone who listens to your podcast, Mollie, is contributing to that, right?

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Like it- Mm-hmm ... it makes a difference to the greater whole. All of these little choices that we make ourselves are contributing to a paradigm shift- Hmm ... that our children will live in, our great-grandchildren. And so, everything that you do matters, and everything that everyone does matters. I so appreciate you framing it like that, 'cause we can see people start to get overwhelmed and frustrated, and sometimes almost like lending this like victimization kind of component of when they start learning about all this, and, "Oh, no, the, the foods are against us, and the toxins, and the EMFs, and the da, da, da, da, da."

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Resignation can sometimes set in, or, or upset, or what have you. But the importance of that reframe and really see, and how you're pointing to what you have said before, too, these little shifts, and how much of a huge impact, uh, to use the quantum terminology, how much of a kind of quantum and paradigm shift that we can experience just by taking these little steps and learning a little bit more, and being in this conversation.

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So beautifully articulated, and love that message of hope with all of this. And just transformation, too. Like, your story is absolutely one of transformation, and I feel the same way, too. I'm, in a weird way, I absolutely believe that I extended my life by going through that period of insomnia, uh, even though on the short side of it, short, um, piece, I was so stressed out, I'm like, "Oh, no, what am I gonna do to my health?"

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And, "When's it gonna happen?" And yeah, yeah. But on the other side of that, learning all of this then set the foundation and tone for just years of living in alignment with these rhythms of nature. And then everything kinda somewhat falls, can be aided in falling more into place. Yes. I love that. Yeah. And, and what, you know, like whatever it is that's a problem right now, going through the work of finding a solution was probably the point of the problem.

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Yes, exactly. Couldn't agree more. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Well, I loved this conversation. I love to learn about your former night owl ways, and similar to how we were just very kind of similar journeys as it relates to that. And now the sun-loving morning kind of lifestyle that can emerge from this. So really so helpful for listeners in case they're like, "Well, this can't possibly be for me."

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It can be for you. So thanks so much, Meredith, for taking the time. It means so much, and keep doing this fantastic work you're doing, and we'll be sure to leave in the show notes all those ways for people to be a part of your world. Thank you, Mollie. Such a pleasure to chat with you. Thank you. You've been listening to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level.

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Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet. Fun fact, I've never missed a Monday for over five years and counting, and it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to sleepisaskill.com/newsletter to sign up

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