275: Nadine Artemis, Author of Renegade Beauty & Holistic Dental Care, Creator of Living Libations: How Morning Sun Changes Your Nighttime Sleep

 Welcome to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman, and I am the founder of Sleep Is a Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex-sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.

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Each week, I'll be interviewing world-class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian-aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and, by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before

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And welcome back to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast. What if one of the most powerful tools for better sleep and wellbeing has been right outside all along? Today I'm joined by Nadine Artemis, author of Renegade Beauty and Holistic Dental Care and creator of Living Libations. With more than 30 years of experience in botanical beauty and holistic wellness, Nadine invites us to rethink some long-held beliefs about sunlight, skin, and how we care for ourselves.

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We explore how our exposure to light throughout the day can influence sleep and circadian health, along with Nadine's unique perspective on sun exposure and sun care. We also dive into blue light, melatonin, seasonal changes, essential oils, and practical ways to create an environment that better supports restorative sleep.

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So listen in and consider how a few thoughtful changes to the way you experience your days and nights could make a meaningful difference. And if this conversation gives you a new perspective on sleep, sunlight, or beauty, share it with someone who might enjoy it too. Remember, sleep is a skill that you can train.

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And welcome to the Sleep Is A Skill podcast. We are joined by the angelic looking, looks so beautiful, her setup and everything, and the glowing skin, and all of it. Nadine, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Hi. Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, before hitting record, we got to connect on all kinds of not only mutual friends, but, you know, mutual outlook and appreciation on certain topics, but certainly on the topic of rhythms, and sun, and how these things can all make a difference for our health.

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So sure we'll get into all that and more, but before we do, maybe a little bit about, you know, how you came to be an expert in your space, and even into this topic of sun. Yeah. Well, I love talking about sun, even though it's not necessarily, like, my career- For sure ... but I feel like it's, like, my body's career.

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Yeah. To like, you know, be with the sun. And so I've made a lot of lifestyle choices in the past 25 years to sort of be where I can be with the sun more, so to speak. Yeah. But through that journey, that, when my other, my day job, or whatever, is I am a botanical formulator, and I have been formulating, um, skincare, oral care.

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I've got, you know, sun, even some sun products since 19- since the 1990s, really since I was 18. And then in 1992, I opened up, uh, North America's first full concept aromatherapy store, and I had that venture for a while, so that was, like, all my original formulations. And then just the way the internet was going and wanting to leave the city and everything, uh, closed the store down in '99, and then just went, like, fully online, and I met my now husband, Ron, and we created that next chapter together, which is Living Libations.

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Mm. Um, so sort of in, like, this, I don't know, it's been over 30 years of formulating, and I love it because I, you know, even when I was little, I felt like, we didn't have the word biohacking o- obviously then. Sure. But I was so... But I felt like when I lear- when I learned about ingredients, or- or formulas, or herbs, and then the topicals, or, like, ingredients like essential oils, I was like skin...

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Again, we didn't have the word, but, like, skincare can be biohacking. And so it's not just about moisturizing, it's about, like, having what you're putting on, in, and around your body be so good for your immune system, for your senses. Mm. And through that- I feel like, I feel like kind of at the root of it all is I like to help people feel good in the skin that they're in.

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Mm. And so my understanding of beauty sort of on a philosophical level is, yes, I'll make beautiful creams and things and all that fun stuff, but really it isn't another jar or another anything that's gonna really revive our being. I feel like when we think about beauty sort of like with a capital B, like, you know, in that holistic way, it's really our relationship with life and to the elements.

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And so to kind of have like part of our beauty routine, our beauty ablutions, like our sort of, you know, all that, how we take care of our body, really we do want to engage with the elements, which is, you know, earth, wind, fire, you know, earth, wind and fire- Yeah ... water. Those things, which of course includes the sun.

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Sure. Because these are the things that will revive our being, and yes, there's the gifts from the earth that then we can make beautiful things to apply to our body and eat and all that. But really to revive and to, you know, feel good with who we are, we don't wanna forget that the sun is there to, you know, I mean, so many things.

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To light our suprachiasmatic nucleus, to actually touch our skin. Our skin, even though, you know, I- being in beauty you would think I would be against the sun. That was gonna be my next piece. So yeah, I wanted to know how you reconcile that, 'cause I'm sure a, a lot of people have kind of other approaches.

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Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Please share. So that, yeah, that's a good point. And it kind of came out of like just growing up, right? So in the '80s we had sunscreen and, I mean, we still do, but I meant like it was like, you know, put sunscreen on, don't go out between 11:00 and 3:00, blah, blah, blah. And we, like my friends and I were at school, we'd always be trying to like sneak in the sun 'cause it was kind of like forbidden fruit in a way.

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Yeah. Like, you know, we'd be at school and we would put like tinfoil on our like books and like try to get tans. Ah. And all that stuff. And I definitely, you know, I definitely got burnt and blah, blah, just like classic- Sure ... childhood. But I, I was like, "I don't know, but it feels so good." Mm. Like, I just was like, "I need the sun.

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I feel good." So sort of getting out of the teens, and I really started formulating around 18 or so- It's kind of a whole other story. But, um, I was like, "Okay, well let's... I like the sun. I like all these juicy plants. Like, what, you know, what's the path? How can they be together?" And then I just started also experimenting, like, my time in the sun, using rich pigments, building up the melanin.

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I didn't... You know, I feel like there's so much more information, like, now, but in the '90s and stuff it was pretty scant. But it was, you know, building, and I've been researching since then, and slowly I feel like all the pieces have come together to just really show. Like, and we were like, you know, think around 2005, 2010, there was so much about vitamin D- Mm

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that coming out, and then we're seeing, like, there's, like, three, about, you know, 3,000 diseases that are dependent on sufficient vitamin D to not happen. Mm. Um, so our skin really needs it. And then- You know, I've been doing research for a long time, but one of my favorite books was written by Dr. Bernard Ackerman.

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Mm. So he has a... Oh, what's it called? Sun... Myth On Myth or something. It's about s- the myth of sunlight and melanoma. Oh. It's not the exact title, but that's the essence of it, and that was written in, like, 206, 209 t- or 209, and he has since gone. He lived a long life. He was always sporting a tan. Sure. And he was the founding father of dermatopathology- Mm

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which is kinda like a level up from dermatology because it's really focused on the disease of the skin. And his book is, like, super thick. It's hard to get now. It's so worth it, though. It's such a gem. Sure. He's also, like, an amazing writer. He's, like, pretty radical and poetic and totally scientific, which is, like, totally my jam.

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Great, yeah. And anyway, so it's a really great book, and he just goes through all the studies. There's a huge takedown at the end of, like, dermat- thal- uh, derma... Oh, my God, dermat- Yeah ... dermatology- It's good ... right, and all the connections with- Yes ... sunscreen. I mean, that's a whole other rabbit hole. Oh, yeah. But he really did bring together so many studies.

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And so what I found was, even though my natural inclination was to, you know, get that melanin going, I just feel like it's been more and more ever since realizing that it's not just, like, a fun thing I wanna do, but it's, like- Yeah ... essential. Yes. You know? And then we moved to where we are about 20 years ago, which is just out in the country, which also created so much more freedom.

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Mm. You literally see the sunrises, see the sunset- Yeah ... join in, you know, and just, like, well, basically naked sunbathe because there aren't any- Yeah ... neighbors. Like- Exactly. One of my favorite activities. Yeah. And then so much has come around since then. Like, now we've got apps. Mm-hmm. And we really are starting to understand the circadian rhythm in a whole different way.

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But I do think that s- sun and skin piece is still pretty, um, 'cause it's just been so ingrained since, like, about the 1950s, where that was when the chemicals came in for topical sunscreens. But before that, we didn't have, like, the chemical sunscreens. And, you know, you have, like, the turn of the century around 1902, Niels Finsen winning the Nobel Prize for heliotherapy- Mm

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which is, like, a fancy word for sun therapy. Yeah. Then in the 1920s, you got Dr. Auguste Rollier, who was building off of that work. He has clinics in, or a clinic in Leysin, Switzerland, and it's great to google the pictures, uh, on Google. Like, Dr. Auguste Rollier, Leysin, Switzerland, and h- the hospital, it's like a sun hospital, and there's ver- and verandas, and everybody's got beds outside.

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And you see children that go in with, like- You know, um, rickets and, like, bone sort of def- deformation, that kind of stuff. And then it's black and white but then, you know, a year later you'll see, like, tanned boy, totally beautiful posture and looking so healthy. So that was super cool. Like, just that whole

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That was, like, a, a good ... I mean, super cool in the sense of, like, a, a good time for sun. Sure. Yeah And a, a good advancement. And even, like, Mademoiselle Coco Chanel around the 1940s was like, "You know, no outfit is complete without a tan." Yes. It's just c- it's just thing- seeing things like that. So that was really neat.

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And then, you know, research is coming out, um, again where really the '80s and the '90s and probably present day, I just don't pay attention to it, but it's just like, "Don't go in the sun." Like, you know, you will just basically die. Yeah. Let alone, like, or you'll get wrinkle- wrinkles or hyperpigmentation, that kind of stuff.

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And I'm literally in the sun for hundreds of hours a year. Um, not always my face. A lot of it's morning sun, but it's pl- there's plenty of daytime sun. Sure. And there's no, like, melasma from that- Yes ... because it's kind of an inside job. Hm. And melasma is an issue actually with the basal layer. Like, it is a melanin issue in a way.

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Like, those cells are just going to ... They're over-productive in that area if a hyperpigmentation spot comes up or something like that. Hm. And there's a lot of stuff that can be done internally, and then I have made formulations to help outside where people have been like, "Oh no, you have that pregnancy mask.

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Like, you'll never get rid of it." But we could generally, you know, not maybe 100% of the time but, like, 90% of the time things will clear up. So we also ... It's just good to think about, like, undo some of the things that we've been told about that, you know? And then really what we're realizing now, which I don't think we knew in the '90s and the early 10, or what, what do we call that?

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The early aughts. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Is the blue light situation. Yes. And when we look at the early, uh, or earlier studies that were looking at light and sunlight, like, there's one in the '90s from the New England Journal of Medicine, and what they find is the more time you spend outside, the closer you are to the equator- The less melanoma you have.

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Mm. But the people that spend more time under fluorescent lights, so it was fluorescent lights back then. Yes. We didn't even have, like, LED- LED ... blue light back then. Mm. Right? And so then that was from the '90s, and also at that time we didn't have, like, most of the population at their computer- Yeah ... let alone even an iPhone, right?

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Yeah. So then we have, like, around 2010, 2012, the LEDs come in. Most people are starting to get a smartphone, where we have this blue-lit screen, like, staring back at us all day. And if, you know, if you wake up at 3:00 AM, that light is, like, coming to get you. Yeah. And I don't think we even know that back then, I felt.

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Anyway- Yeah ... I didn't know that And what a difference it makes to know that and to be able to adjust your phone, for example. Um, but I digress. I'm kind of... I just- Yeah ... yeah, there's, anyway, there's connections- No, let's drill ... with that circadian rhythm- Yeah ... and blue light and your skin. Yes. And there's so many ways to take care of your skin so it can greet the sun, because our skin is literally designed to be engaged with sunbeams.

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We have thousands of vitamin D receptors all over our body. Yeah. And they want the sun, and they need it. And our immune system needs the water-based sort of, uh, vitamin D, for, like call it, the sort of this steroidal hormone precursor that we call vitamin D, and it's a water-based vitamin D that's created when it's with the alchemy of the sun, which is different than the fat-soluble, which is also needed.

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Mm. Um, so it's really the only way to get this. And then besides, like, looking at the sun and being in the sun and getting the infrared, so many pathways in our body are activated, and our eyes take in the sun. That's important, because again, it's activating things like amino pe- uh, um, amino peptides and there's like 12 types of cholesterol that are healthy cholesterol that are generated from being in the sun as well.

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Mm. One is called lumisterol, and there's just, that's just like what we kinda know right now- Sure ... which isn't even the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. So like, 'cause there's a nutrition there that we know, and then there's a nutrition that we don't know- Yeah ... that we just know that we need. Yes. Okay. So you just said so much there.

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That was perfect. For people that are s- still hesitant because they've been in more of this conversation like you were speaking to, the, you got, you, we are fearful of the sun, and we need the sunscreen, and da, da, da, da, da, and/or s- particularly in the kind of longevity or anti-aging and dermatology space, and like, okay, yeah, maybe sun's good for you, but I don't wanna age before my time, and all these things.

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So considering people that are coming from that vantage point- Yeah ... how do we talk about kind of healthy, or I don't know if that's the right word, but thoughtful- ways of introducing sunlight for people? 'Cause I think sometimes people hear some of the things we're talking about, and then it gets all taken out of context.

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Yeah. And they say, "Oh, they're t- telling us to..." You know, "Well, what about my, you know, uncle who got the skin cancer right on his face? Are you saying that..." You know, like, people get all activated. Yes. So how do we take someone that has just not been exposed to sunlight, unless it was under, through a big veil of sunscreen-

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for years, and then suddenly they start going out at 1:00 PM in Mexico, and then- ... are surprised, and then they burn, and then, "See? I, I told you." So I know that's a long- Surprise ... a long way to say how do we start to thoughtfully introduce sunlight for people that really works in the respect for the power of the sun, and that will serve from a health perspective, from a dermatological perspective, all of that?

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Yeah, great question, and, and totally nuanced. You're also reminding me, uh, like when, I think a few years ago, Gwyneth Paltrow was, said something like, "I don't always wear sunscreen." It was pretty, like, it was very soft. Yes. Holy cow, did she ever get slayed. Yeah, exactly. Right. It's crazy. Yeah. Okay, so, um, start slowly.

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Start in the spring. Dr. Auguste Rolier, he would start people five minutes at a time. Yes. And if you don't trust me on the face, no problem. Just don't do your face. Just do every other part of your body, you know? Sure. Like, the whole backside, the s- the whole... Like, there's a lot of s- real estate- Yeah ... you can bring in those rays.

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And you can just, you know, put a hat on. I wouldn't... Like, you wanna be smart, but I wouldn't u- like, have sunscreen as your, like, major defense. And if you are sunbathing Don't sunbathe with sunscreen. Like, get your vitamin D. Maybe you're gonna have to have a shorter time, like, get... I don't, yeah, I'm trying to think of, 'cause I don't use sunscreen.

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But I guess, like, sometimes people wear it, and then they're like, "Oh, I'm gonna be in the sun for four hours." Now, sometimes we need to be in the sun for hours 'cause we're, like, surfing or whatever. Yeah. And you have to have strategies for that. But if you just wanna be, like, in the sun for four hours, and then you're gonna slather on sunscreen so you can do that, that's not so good either- Mm

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'cause you're also anesthetizing your own alarm system because four hours would be too long. Yeah. So we don't wanna not do that. And then the real issue with sunscreen, besides all the chemicals, which is just like a whole thing, and a lot of North American sunscreens are using ingredients that are banned in Europe, like oxybenzone, for example, which is non-carcinogenic until it's exposed to light.

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Mm. This is a whole other story. That's a whole can of worms. The whole- Yeah. Yeah, so besides all that, the issue with sunscreen or SPF, and those are, those are words that can only be used for, like, certain, like, it has to be a chemical thing. So if we speak metaphorically, like, olive oil kinda has, like, an SPF of eight.

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Like, it's just a metaphor because SPF is a fully regulated term for certain chemicals, and that's a whole thing. But sunscreens and SPF, what they do is they divide the sun's rays. So you're now receiving that ray and you're, you're not getting, we should be getting UVA with UVB, but now we're not getting UVB, which is the one you really want.

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Although really you pro- just want the whole spectrum, but UVB is your D generator. Mm. And UVA isolated is skin damaging. Mm. So in my book, Renegade Beauty, I have a very solid sun care sun chapter. Sure. And so I'll have more of the kind of, you know, exact footnotes in there. Yeah. But there's a study, a Cochrane review, which is where they take studies and then collate them.

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Mm. So they collated about 14 studies on sunscreen, and to summarize, they found that s- the use of sunscreen creates more freckles, more moles, and more chances of skin dysbiosis- Mm ... which lead to the bigger things. So that's not good. Wow, it must be so frustrating for you too, being in this space and seeing some of this glaring research, and yet a narrative that's, oh, y- the, the smart people- It's strong

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put on sunscreen. It's just ... It's just ... It's decades. It's huge. You know, it's way beyond our ... Yeah. But yeah, it's like, but I think it's good to undo because we are ... I think most people feel good with some sun, with like sun-kissed cheeks, with that like, oh, it's a sunny day. Like, who doesn't love that, generally speaking?

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Yes. And now we just have to go a bit further with like allowing our bodies to feel that and to get- The nutrients and the energy and the, like, for lack of a better word, like, the cosmic pollination- Yeah ... that we don't even fully know or get yet. Mm. Oh, I like that phrasing. That's great. Yeah, I guess also for the practical application for people on this, it makes me think of certain thought leaders kind of in, like, the quantum biology space or circadian biology space.

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Mm. I've heard analogies on kind of act like the, the giraffe meaning- What? ... oh, you can envision a giraffe, and in the morning it's kind of, like, creeping out to go to the watering hole and just exposing to the sunlight and what have you. But as the day progresses, sort of sh- seeking shade later- Yes ... as the sun's raising.

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Yes. You still get so many benefits by being in shade, but, I mean, depending on- Many. Oh, so many. Right? And then depending on- Yes ... Fitzpatrick scale, maybe we have oppor- Like, I'm very pale naturally. Believe it or not, this is me with, like, color. But, you know, so depending on where you're on your Fitzpatrick scale- Totally

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then customizing this and where you are on the globe and, you know, the skin really gets- Yeah ... right? That is so important, yeah, because we were talking about sort of the time of day, and so what's also- Yeah ... the sun isn't just this monolith. Yeah. It's like just avoid the sun, because- Yeah ... there's, like, a full menu all day.

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We gotta... We're like h- we wanna be like human sundials or, like, you know, sunflowers, or, like, the giraffe, I guess, right? So yes- ... the morning you wanna roll with that, like, how if you any way you can access the sun from dawn until the UV comes in. Mm. So that's the ultraviolet rays. So that whole time is completely safe, and I do love, uh...

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There's a few vitamin D apps. There's, like, one, an old school one called D-Minder that I like, because then you can start learning about where is the sun where you are. So, like you said, what's your geographical location? Mm. So here in Ontario, Canada, we have a, like... You know, it's way different than being in, like, Hawaii.

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But even in Hawaii, the sun, I mean, generally speaking, 'cause again, it changes all year and- Yeah ... you know, by the equator it's gonna be less. Here, you know, in peak summer we're building up to, like, you know, sunset at, like, 9:00, which is just my favorite time of the year, you know, and the sunrise will start coming at 5:00.

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But then at, in November, the sun's setting at like 4:00. So it's like a big shift. But, um- Yes ... so you wanna know that. So like right now, the UV isn't coming till about 9:00 here, and, and in Hawaii or most tropical, you'd have like, um, probably till about 9:00 or 8:00 or 9:00 till it came in. So you know that window's totally like great.

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Like go for it. Like, you know- Yeah ... it's great to just be in the infrared, in the sun, the red, that's your red, that's your OG red light therapy. Yes. So, right? And if you're gonna watch the sunrise and be in that morning light, that's your OG red light mask. Yes. That is, right? And that actually prepares us for the UV times.

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Now hopefully also we prepared 'cause we're just like generally kinda healthy. We're not fueling with like just Coca-Cola and Froot Loops. You know, we've got... Like we're hydrating with water. Yeah. We're hopefully having some kind of pigment, like, uh, an algae. There's like a spermidine algae, the acet- astaxanthin, which I can never say, the red algae.

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Yes. Right, right. Just because there are studies that show There's an internal sunscreen made by what we eat, and that can protect us from the inside out. Mm. So, you know, you're bringing... It's like a, an offering, right? Like a sun altar. Like you are bringing your body to that sun altar, and there's a relationship.

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It's not just what's the sun doing, it's like what are you bringing to that? Hmm. So with the UV, and then that first hour or so is very gentle. Like, you know what I... So that could be a thing. So sometimes on a beautiful summer morning, like, if, if I play my cards right, I'm hopefully up, like watching from like 5:00 AM sunrise, and I'm hopefully like out in the sun till about noon.

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Yeah. That's like a really great day. Yeah. The weather's cooperating and all that. And then sometimes, you know, if I can't do all morning, I'll go do the sun, you know, maybe work from 9:00 till 12:00. Yeah. Then I go out at noon specifically because that's like a power hour. So now I know I can get a bunch of sunlight in at a faster rate.

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Yeah. Whereas like from, from 10:00, it might take me 10:00 to 11:30 to get that chunk. But if I, 12:00 to 12:30 in the summer, then I can do that chunk in half an hour. Yeah. But sometimes you just wanna be languid and sometimes you wanna kinda get it done. But that's why you can't even just say, "Well, you just need like 20 minutes of sun."

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Well, it's like, well, is it sunny every day? Is it noon? Are you in Costa Rica or are you in Winnipeg? You know, so there's so many factors, and that's why we can't just say like, "Stay out of sun from 11:00 till 3:00." Yeah. But I do... What I have learnt from like, it's sort of a, like philosophical or esoteric or whatever, so I don't know if it's grounded in fact, but I'm gonna find if there's fact.

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But apparently you generally wanna get the sun till about solar noon. Mm-hmm. 'Cause, which is, so for some places that's 1:00, some places it's 2:00 depending on the daylight savings time. Sure. Because that's the, like, apparently until about solar noon is like the negative ion of the earth, and then it goes into a positive ion.

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But the negative ions are actually posi- Really ... you know, they're beneficial. Yeah. And so apparently just that morning sun, even the concentrated noon, till solar noon, is like more apparently beneficial on a level that we're gonna learn- Yeah ... than that afternoon sun. So I generally do try and do my sunbathing before or by the solar noon- Yeah

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and then I'm done around 1:00, yeah. Yeah. I love it sounds like you're- ... similar in that, like, planning so much of your day around- Yeah ... these rhythms, right? And just I think it's been a lost art. And granted, I, I totally understand there's so many people that are like, "Yeah, I'd like to, but I gotta, I gotta work, I gotta do this."

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And I work with high stakes poker players, and so, uh, not just exclusively, but it's one of the niche of groups that I work with. And they'll be in the exact opposite type of lifestyles that they're in. You know, if they're live players, they might be casinos designed on purpose- Oh, yeah ... to confuse circadian rhythm, and there's no windows and lights.

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It's just, ah. Oh. So I know that some people listening might be like, "Okay, so what do I do though if- Yes ... I don't have the ability to kind of design as much of the day around this? Like, how can I make this all work?" What do you see there for people? For sure. 'Cause... And also, I'll just say, it's, I feel like it's taken me about 20 years to...

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You know? 'Cause- ... thinking about the sun and, like, having a, like, we gotta move where we can see the sunrise and the sunset. So I mean, it's been a long-term plan. Yeah. So there is that. But yeah, you... Well, y- um, then you wanna look at... Well, first just see, like, any time you can pop outside. So think of those, I think of the sort of there's the sunrise, the noon, and the sunset.

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Mm. So if you can do, get any parts of those parts of the day. You know what I mean? Like, even if it's just five minutes around in that hour of sunrise, sunset, you can, in the f- hour to 40 minutes, uh, you can pretty much look right at the sun, 'cause it's very low in the sky and it's safe. Mm. And it's really good for your eye.

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Like, even there's, like, eye exercises for it. And if it's too... If you're squinting, you just cover one eye. Sure. And that actually really helps us bring in eyes, which helps, uh, bring in eyes, bring in the light. Yes. 'Cause if you go outside and you're just, like, squinting, you don't get enough just light. Like, you don't get enough natural light, and that helps us not have crow's lines or crow's feet- Oh

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because your eyes can hold light. You're not just squinting, right? Yeah. 'Cause they can... So that's- Light ... it's good to do that. Yeah. So just try and just be like, "Hello, sun," and just see it. Like, you, maybe you're not bathing, but you're just, like, with it, and it's help- it's, like, giving your suprachiasmatic nucleus information.

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Mm. And then I think you really want to, especially if you're playing poker in a casino all night, you g- you gotta blue block. Yeah. You know, I would just definitely be wearing the shades for sure. Uh, right. Yeah, the yin to the yang, like having, um, as much of that daylight as we can possibly work in, and then on the flip side- Yes

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so much more of that darkness 'cause we've just been deprived of that. And certainly from a skin health perspective, I'm sure, right, like the ability to make that melatonin, that's gonna be so supportive for rejuvenation and all our goals, and yet if we're just swimming in all this blue light, it's just a, a challenge.

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So I like that call-out. Okay, so the blue blockers- Yes ... in the evening. And so ultimately, I know you have certain products too that can help support people with sleep specifically. Is that right? I was able to test out some of these- A tiny, yeah- ... things ... a little tiny bit. Yeah. Just to speak to that, like, kind of love of this, the rhythms, like I just thought that was so cool that you have kind of taken a stand for that circadian health, and you've got certain things that can help with people for the sleep side of things, and how this can all work together.

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Well, I do love, uh, and I work with a beautiful palette of essential oils. That's what really got me going at 18. And so what's super cool about... They're like, you know, they're on one level it's sort of some people think, oh, it's aromatherapy, it's sort of like Hallmark potpourri. Yeah. But when it's real genuine distillations, I mean, they're...

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it's not just like a pretty smell. It's like they're real plant matter, and one drop of an oil has over like 500 phytochemical molecules that can do different things. Mm. So even if we can't smell, those molecules go into our body and have a physiological effect. But of course, it's lovely if you can smell.

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So there are classic things like spikenard, which is a root from Nepal that was actually... Well, it does grow in Nepal now, but it was also available in biblical times, and that's the root, uh, they crashed open a alabaster jar of spikenard and washed Jesus's feet in the Bible, and it was like so costly. But it's got this, um, very soporific, um, sedating aroma, which is also interesting if you think of that context, like what that would've added to the air, 'cause it was a jar like that, and it's like such a strong-smelling oil.

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But anyway, I digress. That I blend with things like, um, mandarin and lavender and marjoram. Mm. And we make a sweet sleep serum that I've been making for about 25 years that just people love. Love. Like, it really helps. You can ba- you know, put a drop in your bath. You can drop it on your pillows. There's a pillow spray.

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Some people wear it as a perfume 'cause it's got, oh yeah, it's got vanilla in it too- Yeah ... so it's really quite beautiful. 'Cause v- you know, it's like a very pleasant sleep aid. So we have that, or you can just put it under your nose. And then, um- I, I'm so into cutting the, blocking light at night, and I'm always in search of the perfect eye mask.

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Yes. So it took a couple years I did put it here. I made a silk sleep eye mask. Yay. So it's, like, fully winged. It's dark on that side, so it always blocks out. But I just ... I wanted something so simple that didn't have, like, stuff and, you know, like, uh, elastics and plastic inside. And so the... even the filling is silk.

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Mm. So and you can put your sweet sleep serum on that. Um- Oh, cool ... but yeah, I just think blocking... Because, you know, we can't always... If you're traveling too, you don't know the light situation- Right ... and it's really important that there's no light at night. You know, even if you have... You gotta take, like, little blackout tape, and, like, every little dot that's, like, in...

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You know, from your smoke alarm to whatever, you wanna black tape that. You don't wanna have one little crack of blue light in your bedroom. I think that's important. Yes. Ugh, so true. Oh, my goodness. Okay. So- Send me one of these. Yeah. I'll send you one. Do you like pink, uh, mauve, or green? Ooh. Maybe... Oh, good question.

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I'm liking all of these. Maybe the green, 'cause I just did, um, a palette analysis, and I'm supposed to be- Ooh ... cool tones for... I'm a summer. A winter? Summer. Oh, summer. Summer. Yes. Yeah, well, it's funny 'cause my mom's, like, a winter, and I'm a, um, supposed to be this true summer that's supposed to have all cool tones as much as possible.

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So now I'm trying to add in the- these cool color tones. I don't know. Um- You know, this is so random. My mom took me to do that in 1986. Right, it's so... Uh, yeah. It's so old school. I love it. It's so old school, right?

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I know. And it feels like it- it's made this comeback, because suddenly on, like- Yeah ... Instagram and TikTok and all these things, people are having these palette analysis parties, and it's, like, a whole thing. Oh, wow. That's so cool. I know. Who knew? But yeah, so thank you. That's so great. And I just... I love, too, even the, the sets up for side sleeping, you know- Yeah

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so that... So many of them, the, the band goes right on your ear if you're trying to side sleep. So- Yeah ... yeah. I love that. Great. Definitely a commitment to sleep from what I'm hearing and seeing from everything that you're sharing, so I love this. Before we shift to how you're managing your own sleep, I know this is a huge topic around sunlight, skincare, uh, circadian health, this kind of living a lifestyle that's this rhythmic flow to it.

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Is there anything we left out before we shift over to- Mm-hmm ... kind of routines? You can really be in the sun with your skin, and we would... Like, just to go rec- Just do start slowly. Bring it in. Know your time of day. Know your Fitzpatrick, uh, to- which is just, like, I think there's five, and you kinda know where you are.

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Yeah. And also bring vitamin D to the game. So y- it will make vitamin D, but be ample in your, uh, take some supplementing before. Right. Or, like, you know, in the months before or whatever, um, like in the winter. That's where I- Yeah ... I have to stock up. 'Cause as much sun as I get, and believe me, it's like a full-time job- Sure

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I'm out by end of November. Like, it doesn't It stores for about, like, well, not totally out, but definitely by the end of December. So really I've got about eight weeks if I don't supplement, and I do see a difference. So- Right ... you know, it's fine not to take supplements, but knowing... 'Cause my other area's oral care, and, um, I have a book on that, and what we found is that, you know, a...

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Sunlight is great, but a lot of people just really need vitamin D back in their lives 'cause it really prevents cavities. So- Mm ... just on the other side note, it is- it'd be fine not to take supplements, but I think you really do need both, 'cause we know that vitamin D is something that we ha- constantly have to replenish in our bodies.

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It's not something that's just one and done at all. It's a constant dance to get that D. Mm. Ah. A dance- ... to get that D. I love that. That's so well said. Perfect. Thank you for that. And, and also appreciate that, too, for the specifics for people, and it's certainly where we might live on the globe, and all the nuance that you're speaking to that hopefully we're inspiring for people to dive in more deeply so that they can find what makes sense for them, where they live, all...

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with their p- Fitzpatrick scale, with their schedules, you know, just really come up with that customized plan, and supplement where needed. So it's great follow-ups. Okay. So every person that we bring on the podcast, we ask four questions just on how you're managing your own sleep to see what we might be able to learn from there.

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And I'm sure it evolves or changes and all the things, but right now, what might we see in your nightly sleep routine as it stands today? Well, I do think, yeah, I, I think one of the things which I do in the daytime helps me for the night, which is I put... My phone is on night shift all day long, 24 hours a day.

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Oh. So that's, like, kinda yellowish. Yeah. Sure. I do take it off to, like, edit a photo or something. And then, but that's not strong enough for the night, so then when the sun sets, I put this, uh, red filter on. I don't know how to do... It's out there on the internet. Uh, three clicks on the side of my phone- Yeah

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and it's red. Yeah. But still, I don't look at that without blu- without red light glasses as well. And so after s- During the day, I will also wear my yellow if I'm doing, like, all day at the laptop writing. I will definitely wear the yellow blue blockers. Mm. Do a flux on my computer as well. But, like, you will be...

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When you do night shift on your phone, your eyes are gonna be so happy. Like, your, you're just... They're gonna be like, "Oh my God. Thank you" Yeah ... 'cause for years they were like- Yeah ... you know, I feel like a cat, just like, "Ah." Yes, exactly. So harsh. Your, it, they will- Yeah. You'll... Yeah. So good, and it will take care of headaches if you get any.

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So I think that's so important. And then- Yeah, I do feel like the biggest thing, which I started doing about eight years ago, was like, "Oh yeah, okay, we gotta just turn off the lights at sunset." Well, not... So we, we did red for many years, but we moved to amber. Yeah. So incandescent amber. That's what we did too.

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Yeah. Yeah, because red was, we couldn't really... You know, my son was like, "We can't eat." I know, exactly. So the amber seems to be very functional, 'cause again, November we got 4, 4:00 PM darkness, so we gotta kinda figure that out. Oh. So I feel like that's been really key. And then that- light bulb thing, my r- winter rhythm is very different.

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So when the sun is setting at 4:00, I'm like definitely in the wintertimes ready for bed by like 8:00. Yeah. It's very interesting. Like, you kinda just feel like it's so like, yeah, it just takes you. You're like Yeah ... and so you just, so I've also learned not to fight that. It's just like, well, I should go to bed at 10:00 or whatever.

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Anyway, so I just do that, and then I kinda get up at 3:00- Yes ... on those if I'm going to bed earlier. But then I've just rolled with that. It's actually really productive. So if I get up at 3:00, 4:00, 5:00, I'm totally down with it now. Yeah ... and may- it's just 'cause I maybe went to bed earlier on the other side.

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Yes. Totally. Right. So- So that seasonal kinda shift. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Now like the sun's setting at 8:00, and I, and like it's r- there's sun, you know, and rising at 6:00, so I feel like this is my, I feel like I feel way more circadian balance, you know? Yes, exactly. I so get that too. And I love that you called out the lighting on the phones, like the red lighting.

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If people wanna find that, it's so great, 'cause you can get it for free, at- at least with um, iPhones. It's just the settings. Yeah. Exactly. So if anyone is looking for that, even if you just Google too, like iPhone sleep red light filter- Yes ... that will all come up. And then if you have a Android, you can get the Twilight app for the red filter.

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So I'm so glad you called that out, 'cause it can... I mean, when we are staring at these things- Oh ... for a stretch of time, it can- Plus there's, um, it- it's 300 or 500, it's just, which is mind-blowing anyway, flickers a second. Too much. So we haven't even talked about the flicker, you know? Yeah. And then all the LEDs are flickering.

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Yes.

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Yeah. So yeah, it's not good. Stressful. I, I, I mean, I did read Take Off Your Glasses and See when I w- and uh, like some eyesight books when I was 18, 19, and so I kind of figured out some stuff early. Yes. But I am in my 50s, and I don't wear glasses. Wow. Oh. So like just to, 'cause I've done a lot of things to help that eyesight, and I- Sure

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I feel like if I continued and didn't have like night shift on my phone all day and those kinda things, I feel like I would have more eye strain and probably be in a different situation. Yeah. I so hear that. I so appreciate that. And yeah, good call-outs on certain resources that if people wanna learn more, kinda getting some of those books that you've mentioned.

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Okay. So then the next question is what does your morning sleep routine- Mm-hmm ... with the idea that how we start our day can impact our sleep, what might we see in the mornings and throughout the day? Yeah. Well, sometimes if I am getting up early, I k- sometimes don't mind, like if it's 3:00 or 4:00, because then the sunrise comes and then I'm all like ready to party with that.

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You know what I mean? So I can get some work done. And so my main goal in the morning- Winter or summer, but obviously it's better in the summer, is to just totally be with the sunrise, you know? Mm. Like, I mean, unless it's, like, cloudy out. I'm kinda fair weather. Like, I know you can look at the sun when it's cloudy, but, um, I kinda need the sun, you know what I mean?

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So- Yeah ... less, I need the sun. Um, so, uh, the... I have, like, a setup. I have, like, kind of a deck off the room, and there's, like, a trolley where I have all kinds of things that I can work on or, like, biohack with, and I have this beanbag, and it's just, like, for all the sun. So I mean, we have all kinds of sun spots, but that's, like, my morning spot.

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Yeah. So I can bring it in. You know, I got a blanket there if I need it. And hopefully, you know, I can spend, like, from 6:00 till 9:00- Mm ... with that sun. And that is- Nice. Yeah ... really good. So good. I know. I love this whole concept of making this sort of this lifestyle, having things work, and you can still, you know, get things done thanks to modern tech.

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Yep. Right? So still bring out the- Totally. ... whatever you need to do, or a phone or something if need be, but how to kinda have it all. So that's great. And to have that peace too to start the day, so fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. Okay. And then what might we see in your environment, so on your nightstand or in your sleep environment?

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For sure. Well, I definitely have a few eye masks because I also just go through a few, you know what I mean? In the middle of the night sometimes I'll just put on a fresh one- Yeah ... or whatever. Yeah. Especially in the summer if it's hot and there's no air conditioning. So I have a few, uh, eye masks. I have a red light obviously.

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And, um, you know what I also have is a f- a stand for the phone. Oh. Not that it's really about sleep, but kind of 'cause... so I don't have to hold it. Yeah. That's smart. Which I think is really, I feel... My hands are very sensitive, so I feel that- I'm like that too ... and- Do you have the stand that has, like, the pillow thing on the bottom almost?

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Oh, no, I don't. I kinda, I use a floor one 'cause I find- Oh ... it's just more, and it's goose neck. And then something that I've gotten into the past few months- Okay ... it's very simple, but it's a little, the little rubber-tipped pen. Like, so basic, right? Oh. Oh my gosh. I have never been so happy you're not touching my phone.

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That's so good. It's like now I won't... I, I can hardly pick it up without, even though it's like this extra thing to get the- Yeah ... little pen. Yeah. But oh my God, I feel like my fingers were just getting so sensitive, and, like, I could feel the heat on the tiniest part- Mm ... and I'm- Yes ... just so glad to not be holding it.

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So that's kind of a new thing, making sure I've got plenty of those. I love that. Okay. Then usually some kind of biohacking something, like crazy things. Yeah. Like the whole hi- like a whole- carbon thing, or we can get a carbon bag, or like the hydrogen thing I'll inhale, or so just sort of like things that we're experimenting with.

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There'll be some fun hack around my bed. Mm. Okay. I love to see it. I haven't heard anyone mention the, the pens, and I have not bought those. I have the daylight computer. I don't know if you've seen that. Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, and it has one of those pens, which I love, but I hadn't thought of doing that with the phone, so I love that.

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And like just the so basic thing, like, like- Mm ... you know, a couple bucks, just the, the tip, and then- Okay. Cool ... voila. Gonna have to get that. And then I'll have to send you, it's just this like cheapy thing I found on Amazon that you put your phone into it, and so it holds it up. Oh, yeah. Right? And then it has- Yeah

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this little kind of pillowy feeling, like little stand thing. Oh, that's cool. So yeah, so it can kind of hold itself and then you can push it out of the way, towards you, over, and so it's just one less thing to have to, like you were saying, like the feeling of holding these things and, you know, can start EMFs or whatever.

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Just another s- a little bit of distance, and you- Yeah, a little bit of distance ... right? Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Cool. Very liberating. Love that. Oh, great. I'm definitely gonna get that. Okay. So the last question would be so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change in how you're kind of managing your sleep or thinking about your sleep?

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Said another way, could be like biggest aha moment in managing your sleep. I would say like the light bulb moment of like switching to the incandescent. Uh-huh. And I feel like the red light extra part on the phone, whatever that, like the click- Yeah ... three clicks to the side because- You know, then it's like even if your glasses aren't around, you can have that quick glance.

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But I, it just really took it out, and I feel like it even is more protection beneath the red. Like, you can't, you know. I mean, I'll watch a show maybe, but it's funny because you can't see all the colors, but I feel like I've seen the colors. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, and I may, I may text the wrong person 'cause I can't Yeah.

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That's okay. You're fine. Yeah. Yeah. It's all good. No. Yeah. I re- yeah, those seem like in the last decade- Yeah ... 'cause I feel like I was, you know, already welcoming the sun, but then, and then totally just making sure there was no tiny bit of light at night. Yeah. 'Cause even if, what, what, what I also learned about melatonin, I feel like that also just kind of helped me understand it more.

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I always thought of melatonin as this pineal gland situation. Yeah. That's only 5% of the story. It's the nighttime excretion. What's actually happening is that we're generating most of our melatonin when in the red light rays of the morning- Yes ... because melatonin is intra mito- it's a mitochondrial thing.

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So that's where we're getting that juice going. And then at night, if you flick on your light for one second, you are depleting, I can't remember the stat, but, like, 30 to 60% of melatonin, just like boom. Oh, it's- Like- ... real ... yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. So if you do have to get up and pee or whatever, don't turn on the light.

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You know, have little red night lights around Um, if your phone's got that red thing, it won't be... You know, it's less of an issue. But even if I have to check the time in the middle of the night, I will put on those red glasses, then I will look at the time because there's nothing worse than waking up at 3:00 in the morning and then you don't- you have that light glaring at you to look at the phone for one second, and then you're up.

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Then you're up. Then you're freaking out. Yeah, exactly. Then the cortisol's like, "Whoo, blue light. Okay." Yes. I'm so glad you mentioned the piece around melatonin, 'cause I think so many people are in that conversation of it's the hormone of darkness. And it, and elements, sure, but to your point, this huge swath of this creation is coming from the light.

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So it's just a- Yeah ... for people. So- Yeah ... really just- And our food from what we're eating in the day. You know, it's like, it's a real... Yeah, it's a daytime thing so that it can come out at night. Great points. Really good points. Ah, okay, so you have really provided so many ways for people to think newly on the importance of even j- just as we talk about this big huge topic of sunlight, and I know you mentioned kind of it was the PR rep for sunlight.

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Yes, we need this. Exactly. And especially in kinda the beauty space. So I really appreciate you being a stand for that and modeling that we can have it all. We can just have it all. We can have the sunlight. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And, and looking radiant. Uh, so, so fantastic and helpful to see. And then anything else that we left out of this big topic of sleep and rhythms, beauty, essential oils, anything that we didn't touch on?

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I feel like that's sort of the juice of it. We do have, like, Everybody Loves the Sunshine, 'cause I realized I forgot when people are in the sun, and if you do have to go surfing or something, what do you do? So there are, like, zinc is what you want, not titanium dioxide. We make our... We have... My classic oil that I made in the '90s was this Everybody Loves the Sunshine, which is a t- a golden tanning oil.

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Yeah. So it's got all these rich pigments like sea buckthorn, so it will extend your time in the sun. It will harmonize your skin, so you have a little bit longer. But that could just be half an hour. For some, it could be, like, if it's a Mediterranean olive tan dude- Yes ... he's good all day, you know? But the Irish woman, that might add 15 minutes or something, right?

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But that's how you, you know, you work up, and it's great for after tan. Then we took that same formula, threw in some, uh, we didn't throw it in, but threw in some zinc, non-coated, non-nano. So you, so and that, it's m- so zinc works 'cause it's a block, um- Yeah ... in the sense that it, the rays bounce off of it. Right.

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So it scatters. So you're not getting that divided, um, UVA, UVB, which is really important. It just says, "No, it's not coming in," you know? And that's- Mm ... that's what you've got. There's nothing really in between the whole sunscreen scene, the 6, the 8, the 50 Just let it go. Let it, yes. You don't need sun- you don't need sunscreen to walk from your car to the mall either.

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Like, we can handle it. Let it go. Yes. Thank you. Appreciate that, yes. Okay. And then for anyone that's listening that's all up in arms too, we also shared, if you, if you missed some of what we spoke to, we also shared about some of the thoughtful things on, like you were saying, the preparatory element of- Yes

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the sunrise light. 'Cause I think so many people skip some of these steps 'cause they haven't gone down the rabbit hole on how there's so much nuance. It's not just sunlight all day long, same thing. It's completely dynamic. It's shifting. And like you said- So dynamic ... we're on the globe. Yeah. So, you know, if you missed that part, rewind that or kind of do a little bit of research.

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Get some of these apps that we're speaking to, My Circadian app and other apps that can help you to find out what time is sunrise where you live, what time is UVA, what time is UVB. You can put in some of those components of your Fitzpatrick scale. You can measure the lux in your environment. You can do all these things so that you can become more knowledgeable about arguably one of the most important kind of drugs, if you will, that is available for free and keeps us all sustaining life.

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It's kind of important to know about. Okay, so lastly, for people that want to check out some of your products, your books, you in general, all of it, how can they be a part of your world? We are, uh, we're over at livinglikepatients.com, and also email us. Like, if you have questions or you didn't get what we were saying or whatever, just email- Yeah

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sage@livinglikepatients.com. And then, like, Instagram I guess is more the main thing, but I think we're on all the channels. Yeah. And my books are on our website, but also they're available as audiobooks on Audible and, you know, Amazon and there. There's... So my books are Renegade Beauty, which that has... Like, that's all the body, skin, everything, deep dive, perfumes, pregnancy.

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Like, everything. Great. Everything. Some people call it the beauty bible. Um, and there's a juicy chapter on sun and skin in there. Yeah. We go through it all. And I do wanna write a whole book on sunlight. Ooh. It'll be about a year. And then I do have a book called Holistic Dental Care, which is all about taking care of your teeth, which, you know, could be something you do before bed too.

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Yes, exactly. Oh my goodness. So knowledgeable in so many areas. So I so appreciate this, and the work that you do, and just your kind of demonstration and stand for this makes such a difference in a sea of kind of conversations on sunscreen and, uh, particular ways of being. This can really help disrupt some of that, so I like that renegade terminology.

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Really, really powerful. So thanks again for taking the time. It means a lot. Thank you. I had so much fun with you. Yay, me too.  You've been listening to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet.

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Fun fact, I've never missed a Monday for over five years and counting, and it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to sleepisaskill.com/newsletter to sign up

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