279: Dr. Kelli Ritter, Founder of Quantum Mental Health Institute & Anxiety Recovery Expert: What Your Anxiety May Be Trying to Tell You

 Welcome to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman, and I am the founder of Sleep Is a Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex-sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.

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Each week, I'll be interviewing world-class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian-aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and, by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before

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And welcome to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast. We spend so much time trying to calm anxiety, manage it, or make it disappear. I'm literally raising my hand right now because that was certainly my journey. But what if anxiety is actually trying to tell us something? Today, I'm joined by Dr. Kelly Ritter, founder of Quantum Mental Health Institute, to explore a very different way of looking at anxiety, sleep, and the signals our bodies may be sending us.

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In this episode, we unpack why Dr. Kelly sees anxiety as a signal rather than simply a problem to solve, and how circadian rhythms, light exposure, mitochondrial health, and our daily environment may influence the way we feel and sleep. At the heart of it all is something surprisingly simple: learning to trust your body again.

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So if you've been doing all the things and still feel like something is missing, this conversation may offer a completely different place to look. Listen in, share it with someone who could use a fresh perspective, and remember, when we support our natural rhythms, sleep has a better chance to find its way back to us And welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast.

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My guest today, I have this problem commonly when I have guests on the podcast where I can just tell that our biggest challenge is going to be how to fit all the things that we wanna talk about into one single podcast, but we're gonna do our best because our guest is a wealth of information and knowledge.

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So Dr. Kelly Ritter, thank you for taking the time to be here. I'm so excited. Thank you for having me, Mollie. Yes. Yes. This is gonna be amazing. And just, you know, have been a fan of your work for quite some time, and excited to delve in a little bit more deeply around how some of the ways that you work with individuals and practitioners, and how the things that you do could make a difference for listeners dealing with issues with their sleep.

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But before we get all there, how did you find yourself known as the anxiety lady, if we like that term? Yeah. How did you get into this realm of anxiety and beyond? Yeah. Well, it's a, a windy story, so I'll just make it as short as possible. I've been in mental health, clinical mental health for over 30 years.

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Sure. And, um, probably right around 2020, 2019, I left academia and was trying to figure out exactly what my next role was gonna be, and I was a holistic psychotherapist, and it was all good, but I kept feeling like I was being called. Like, what is my actual calling? Hmm. And I was in a meditation, and nothing amazing happened in the meditation, but afterwards I was doodling and making some notes, and it came through super clearly, you need to help people with anxiety And I said, "Oh, no.

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I don't, I don't think so." So about five years later or so, I just kept having more and more clients come with their primary concern is anxiety. My own anxiety, right? How we get- Yeah ... into this work at all. I really- Right ... felt like I don't have, I don't have my anxiety together. How am I supposed to help other people?

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And I just thought I was- Yes ... just an anxious person. I just ha- kinda had an anxious disposition. And I was like- Sure ... how am I supposed to help other people? And then my son, my youngest son, started having chronic health issues, terrible sleep. Yep. Uh, huh. And yeah, anxiety, panic attacks. And so I, everything that we did to try and help him, I did.

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Because I was- Mm ... trying to do all the things. And I ended up in applied quantum biology and studying what happens on a cellular level, and it changed my whole life and it changed my work. And, and then our friend Danny Hamilton started- Yes ... calling me The Anxiety Lady, and it landed in a way that I was like, yeah, like in my body, I could feel like, yeah, that's who I am.

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That's what I do. That's who I help. Mm-hmm. And but it took a- Wow ... long time for me to go, "Okay" Yeah. This- Yeah ... this is what I do. To own that. That's- Own it ... great. Well, I love it, and this speaks to me, uh, just completely, like a full body yes to everything you're saying because certainly my own experience of going through these periods of insomnia, and just often when we talk about things like difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep, early morning awakenings, can snowball into periods where you have the fear of the fear of not getting the sleep and what that's gonna mean and just all that spiraling.

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So certainly for myself and for so many people that we work with- Mm ... so much of that tends to be a lot of the breakthrough that's available, and I love that you bring in this quantum piece, so definitely wanna hear more about that if that's new for people, because that's- Yeah ... so important too, and then feeds this conversation completely.

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But I just so appreciate the doubling down on that, and your vulnerability in sharing how it was for you, and that so relates and it brings that humanity that we all deal with this to greater or lesser extents, but to kind of make peace with that, and to really appreciate the, the positive signs if you will, of anxiety and allow all parts of us to be there.

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So that was a long way to say that I acknowledge that path and journey, and so maybe a little bit more too for listeners of tying that bridge a little bit about that quantum biology piece and how anxiety fits in there. Yeah. Well s- first of all, sleep is so important for mental health in general. I mean, it's com- inextricably, inextricably connected.

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So- Yeah ... not everybody with chronic anxiety will have sleep issues, but many do. Um, so it's just, it's a real... And even if you have great sleep, we can improve upon usually. I thought I was a great sleeper, and, um, and then it just kept improving the more I did, thinking I was doing, modeling for my child what I wanted him to do, the better I felt.

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Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, um, that bridge really, I had done everything you can do, but I always... Um, not everything you can do, but I did a lot of work on myself. I did a lot of trauma healing. I'm, you know- Sure ... trained in all the things, and I did all the things, and lots of yoga and exercise. I'm a non-drinker. Like a lot of things.

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Mm. I quit drinking caffeine I don't even know how many years ago, 10 plus years ago. Mm. So I've already done a lot. I'm a nutritional therapist. Of course, I'd already done all the nutrition things. Sure. So I think when I came to the quantum health strategies, I was sort of like, well, I mean, we'll see, but I've already done everything.

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I couldn't believe how foundational it was- Mm. Yes ... in helping me feel so much better. And like I said, I thought I was just kind of an anxious person. I come from anxious- Yeah ... people. We're just anxious people. Same. Yeah. I am not. Like- Yeah ... it turns out I am one very calm, turtle-like, slow- Yay ... not in a hurry, and I was rushing around, acting like, um, somebody else for decades.

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Mm. And so when you come home to yourself- Mm ... it's... And that's what I felt like the quantum health strategies were really about helping me come home to myself. And yes, my sleep- Yes ... improved. And yes, I stopped having that chronic buzzing anxiety that I had known- Sure ... for almost my entire life. Um- Yeah ... so I felt much more grounded and clearheaded- Yeah

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than ever before. So I'm not... I, I love, I love therapy, I love yoga, I love all the things in nutrition, but what really changed it is the two main things that I think about quantum strategies for people is I learned how to support my circadian rhythms and take- Yes ... that very seriously, which I know you know all about.

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You talk about on this show all the time. But it can never be glossed over 'cause you're exactly right. Just makes such a difference. Okay. Yeah. Great. And- I understood it intellectually. I believed that it was important, and it was still a process- Mm-hmm ... of getting out of my old habits of doing things or, or really, I don't know why we don't just go, "Okay," and do it.

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Um- Yeah ... support our circadian rhythms, but it seems to be a process for people. Everyone that I work with has a process to it. Yeah. So I did that, and then I really focused on mitochondrial health, and I under- started- Mm ... understanding what our mitochondria are and how they work and why that's so important.

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And every time I would go to study something else, Mollie, like I'd be like, "Well, let me understand panic attacks from a quantum perspective," and I'd start digging in, and you have to go beyond the research because- Sure ... it's not there, or it's- Yeah ... you, so you gotta dig around and go f- kind of sideways and figure things out.

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And what I came to was this, um, lactic acid buildup in the brain. Hmm. And it is kind of an emergency state, but the body knows how to handle these things. Like anxiety- Hmm ... is a signal. It's actually a gift if you- Yeah ... put to the point. So your body's got these signals, and then when I started digging into well, what do you do about lactic acid and how does that happen and how do we reverse it, led me to the mitochondria.

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So all roads- Hmm ... kept leading me back to understanding the mitochondria. And I feel like- Yes ... the mitochondria, and even circadian rhythms, but mitochondria in particular, that has been a missing link, foundational piece of the puzzle in mental health, and it, it still is because it's not, it's not being taught yet.

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I mean, there's some of us that are training people now. Yeah. But it's coaches, practitioners, mental health, um, counselors, social workers. Like, this is really important because- Mm-hmm ... it's been the missing piece. We've had a lot of, we can help people in a lot of ways, but people aren't Um, aware and they're not supporting their mitochondria in the way that, you know...

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A- and often people will say, "Well, 20 years ago it wasn't like this." No, we were seeing things differently, but the world has changed in the last 20 years. Yes. You know and I know that s- thank goodness sleep is a skill because these, all of these things are just small changes that we can make- Yes ... and skills that you build on.

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They're not, they're not complicated. They're necess- No, no ... you know, it's really simple, and it's just sort of getting back to the basics of how we used to live. Yes, and I love how you've phrased some of this too, 'cause it, that homecoming I feel like also applies in this conversation too, right? Like, you have the beautiful picture of the sun setting behind you, right?

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Like, s- all of this feels like a homecoming when we start making it a lifestyle, this kind of rhythmic, ritualistic ways of relating to our days. So a lot of it, while in, you know, 2026 and beyond, it can land as like, okay, so we need a checklist and it's a skill and da-da-da-da. But really, it's, to your point, like, just such a beautiful hearkening back to how things were, and it just, there's something intuitive about it where it just feels right once we start bringing it all in.

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So I love what you're speaking to, and I love this framing of anxiety as a signal. I wonder if we could kind of underscore a bit more for, 'cause someone that I'm sure people listening are dealing with some form of anxiety around their sleep or life, and when they hear about the signal side of things, how could that support them?

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Yeah. Well, I started looking at really anxiety, but probably, um, any of the emotional states kind of. Sure. I feel like, especially from a quantum perspective, it's like we're- Yeah ... swimming in a sea of emotion or feeling all the time. We have, we generate them inside of us, but we're also, it's like we're a field in a field.

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Mm-hmm. And those frequencies are all around, and it's, we're tapping into or not into these frequencies, right? And the fear frequency is, anxiety is really a fear frequency, and it's a danger signal that are- Yeah ... on a s- even subcellular, but we'll just go cellular level. On a cellular- Yeah ... level, we- if we don't have the right inputs or we have too many of the wrong inputs, your body- Mm-hmm

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is designed to signal to you, "Danger, Will Robinson. Danger." Yes. And that is, and I, I never thought about anxiety that way. It always felt like something to get rid of or that you inherited- Mm-hmm ... or some chemicals. But electricity, it comes before chemistry. And so thinking- Yeah ... about us as mechanical and chemical beings is really outdated from mental health perspective.

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Yeah. We are electric beings. So if you think about all the electric communication that needs to be going on, and we're always swimming in a sea of... And I like to just break it down to love and fear because that makes it a little bit easier. Mm-hmm. Sure, please. Yeah. And w- when we're tapping into, when we have a fear signal internally and externally, and it's just running that way, it can- where our body's going to give us, um, symptoms.

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We're going to have symptoms. And when we don't have the right inputs or the wrong, too many of the wrong inputs, that's just the way it's gonna go. But it's actually- Mm ... a gift because your body is designed, our bodies are beautifully designed to heal. I think what always seemed like, um, a problem to be solved, the first really big pivot for me was realizing it was never a problem to be solved.

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It was always- Mm ... a signal. It was always, and really a gift That, um, I would've never thought of it that way until- Yeah ... you know, maybe hindsight's 20/20, but yeah. Well, this is again so resonating because I've often languaged when people are struggling with their sleep as this gift, as this opportunity, because one of the things that I'll often say is that sleep is a barometer of the workability of our lives.

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And so often when our sleep is off, something in our life is off, and of course, can be chicken or the egg and bi-directional. There can be a lot there, but there's something to discover. And I've often thought about that and, uh, had conversations and gotten to see people on the other side and be like, "Yes, I had to go through that period of time with my sleep to leave the marriage, to change my job, to career," et cetera, et cetera.

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And so it can act as that signal, but I love what you're saying 'cause anxiety can often be a big component as it relates to sleep, and of course, sleep is a big, huge topic, so I'm not meaning to overgeneralize. But I really appreciate this pervasive state that we're seeing so much of our society. I mean, there's just that great book, The Anxiety Generation, and looking at, you know, some of our younger generations, right?

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And just so much that is we're swimming in as a society. So to frame it right out of the gate as this gift and signal, this totally changes the whole way of relating to it. Yeah. So I'm assuming then those safety signals of everything that we bring in with our day-to-day, with our sunrise and sunset and what have you, is that part of what we're starting with for people?

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Or you can tell us- Yeah ... what you think about framing this. Right. So then, yeah, what do we do to tone down the fear signaling and the danger- Yeah. Yeah ... signaling and bring in more safety? And it really is about, okay, what brings about safety to myself? Yeah. And the right inputs, really light and dark, honoring the light and the dark, being in nature.

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Um, nature has a lot to he- of off- to offer us in terms of healing, so it's really simple stuff, like the sunrise, the sunset. That's my backyard, by the way, and that's sunrise. Oh, come on. Yeah. Beautiful. I know. I got really lucky. I was- Yeah ... I would just started getting... I would go out for sunrise every day, but I didn't really understand how the, the spectrum of light, how important that was when we moved here.

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Mm-hmm. And I just got- Yeah ... really lucky that that's my- Beautiful. But you don't have to have a great view. This is what- Yeah ... people are like, "Oh, but my life, I can't do it- Yeah ... because of yada, yada, yada." You just work it a- you work around it. You crack a window on your way to work- Yeah ... or to drop the kids off at school or whatever you do.

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You start stepping outside. Like, when we get off of this podcast- Yeah ... you and I probably have things that have to do n- I have time, I build in time to go outside. Same, yes. Get your light. Get- Yes ... and, you know, crack a window, um, at work if you can. Like, these are the ways you just start with the micro changes that you can do, and sometimes I think- Yeah

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people are like, "That's not micro." Well, then start more micro. The first- Yeah ... as soon as you get up, go straight outside for some natural... Well, sometimes it's dark, but we'll get there. If it's light outside- Yeah, same ... go outside- Yeah ... as soon as you can to get some of the light that's natural light from outside before you touch your phone or turn on a TV- Mm-hmm

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or flip on the lights. Mm-hmm. It's really the habits- Yep ... of we- people are so used to just their normal routine. Flip on the- Mm-hmm ... TV, check your phone, flip on the lights instead of, and it does not take much to stop doing that stuff. Totally. Yeah. And that's where I start because- Okay ... mainly because that's where I started, and it made a huge impact.

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Usually within a few days, people start to go- Mm ... I already feel differently And, um, and it doesn't take a lot. So I start with morning. Okay. And then we start working on the rest of the day. I just start with your morning routine. And because we know that sleep is more about what happens in the morning and during the day- Yep

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than what you're doing at night. I love to have sleep hygiene. I've always been a big fan of sleep hygiene, even before I really understood circadian rhythms- Sure, sure ... and having those routines and rituals. But what I didn't really understand is how the morning is setting the tone for the rest of the day.

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And the coordination- Hmm ... of your neurotransmitters, your hormones, all of that symphony of all the, these changes that are happening in the day or t- in the morning starts that. And the light, getting the right light is s- you know, the, the main input that we want in the mornings. Sure. Okay. Yeah. That's so helpful.

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So then if someone is coming to you struggling with anxiety, how is this approach... And already, I mean, the things you've mentioned are outside of the bounds of what we might often hear. Maybe it's like an afterthought, like, "Oh yeah, you know, be thoughtful about your sleep," or whatever. But how is your approach different to what more of the traditional mainstream approach is to someone that's struggling with anxiety?

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Or how does that look different? I was a professor and in private practice for decades be- Sure ... and didn't really ever mention these things. Like morning light, I just didn't know how important that was. Sure. I was very... And I was holistic already. Like I knew- Yeah. Yes ... sleep was important, I talked about routine and, and those sorts of things, but I didn't understand how light specifically was coordinating all of the orchestra of events.

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Yes. And so that is just something that we're, we're, a lot of us are working hard to help practitioners now understand- Mm-hmm. Yeah ... that that is not something you can leave out if you want real recovery. So I think a lot of the work that I used to do, I s- I had anxious, depressed... I mean, I did a lot with mood.

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Yep. But I did a lot with gut health- Okay ... and brain and gut and nutrition. And I could get- Sure Anything kind of natural was in my, in my area, right? Yeah. But I didn't... I, y- you know, it only would get people so far. It felt more like management, so anxiety management or stress management, and everybody was getting better, having some improvement.

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But I got to the point where I was walking with people, companioning them through recovery. Like- Hmm ... this is really true. You are no longer just managing or have- Yes ... some coping skills. You are now a whole different human being that has integrated or harmonized parts, th- and you're just returning to your true nature.

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And that- Yes ... to me is what's so different from what- Yes ... you know, traditional ways of doing things, um- Yeah, symptom- Just- ... treatment and all that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Great. Well, that's huge. And then what about for... 'Cause sometimes there can be certain more traditional approaches to sleep, and so sometimes I'll hear feedback around, oh, well, you know, bringing in all this stuff around light is making...

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People are already anxious about their sleep, and we don't wanna give them more things to fixate on. And you can understand the thinking if, if it just feels- Sure ... like an extra thing, then you're just giving people, like, neuroses. I wonder if you can share why potentially that might not fully land. Like, maybe there can be something from a full body experience that's happening that's actually aiding all of our goals to support people with the experience of anxiety that this is helping us, the light cues, the dark cues, and other things that you may or may not bring in.

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Yeah. I... And I used to tiptoe around it a little bit for those very reasons- Yep ... of, like, not- Yeah ... wanting to add more pressure to people, and what I've found is that it's just non- negotiable. It's so foundational that you're only going to get- Yeah ... so far if you don't. I'm gonna love you. Mm-hmm. I tell my clients this all the time.

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I'm gonna love you no matter whether you do it or not. Yeah. You can come back. We can keep working on mindset if you want. We can do all that, but I'm telling you, if you want recovery- Mm-hmm ... you are going to have to get your light right. You're gonna have- Yeah ... to honor your circadian rhythms. There's just no way around it.

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It's how you're built. Yeah. It's your biology. Yes. And if you want your chemistry to get its act together, and you have the most incredible chemistry, like, we have a better pharmacy in our nervous system than anywhere in the world. And if you want- Yes ... it to work in your favor, you are going to have to get your electricity situated.

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It's just- Mm ... the way it is. And- Preach. Yes. I know, but I used to, like, tiptoe- Love it. Nope ... around and, like, not, and y- you can't. And as a- Mm-hmm ... practitioner, I get where people are coming from. I understand that. Yeah. I've worked, I'm telling you now, thousands of people with- Yeah ... an- chronic anxiety, and they are the most fantastic, wonderful human beings that want to feel better.

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Mm-hmm. And they've done a lot of the things. And what they have not done is- fix their mitochondria, like help their mitochondria- Mm-hmm ... and their circadian rhythms. And so I don't tiptoe around it anymore, is basically- Okay ... what I tell practitioners is, and when people actually do small things and just- Mm-hmm

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start with your morning routine, and as quickly as you can, get on board with the evening, because that will make the biggest difference, I think- Mm-hmm. Me too ... too. It's the, the one, the place where people are like, "Oh my gosh, this really improved my sleep. This is really improving my mood." And people are shocked at how quickly, um, we- your body wants to support you.

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It just needs- Yeah ... the inputs. Like, it's, it's trying. So, um, yeah, so I tell practitioners and I tell people all the time, "This is going to be better at helping your own pharmacy work in your system." Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay, and then so for people that maybe are newer to this idea of that their mitochondria is connected with their anxiety and symptoms, maybe just a little bit more about how they could think, like, is this a lens that they want to be taking on, kind of that mitochondriac or that, you know, kind of mitochondriac-centric approach?

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Do you subscribe to kind of like, uh, Chris Palmer's, like, brain energy component, right? Like keto or certain things. Uh, like when you think about this big topic of mitochondria and some of our psychological impacts, what are some of the biggest things to support mitochondria that people could kind of connect?

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Yeah, 'cause I think just even the word mitochondria, people are like, "What is that again?" And- Yeah ... it just, you know, and it can be a little like, what? And I think- Yeah ... the mitochondria are so important, it's just not something to gloss over or ignore anymore. We just can't. Nope. Yeah. But you don't have to be a mitochondriac to benefit.

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Yeah. And you don't have to do anything really big. I am trained in ketogenic diets for mental health. I'm a- Sure ... and I've done a lot of work around that, and I can see how it supports the mitochondria. But here's the thing. Mm. The mitochondria really need three things, basic things. They need sunlight from outside.

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Mm. And it doesn't have to be a beautiful, sunny day to get- Yeah ... light from outside. Sure. They need sunlight, they need oxygen, and they need electrons. And yes, you can get electrons from food. And fat, by the way, good, healthy fats are full of electrons that the body can use. Mm-hmm. So yeah. Yes. A ketogenic diet is gonna support that.

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And being in- Yep ... ketosis, which is a, it's a metabolic state, you know, so that is helpful because it does help clean the body. Sure. But it's not the only way, and we- Yeah ... have learned that you can step outside and put your, touch earth, like a finger- Mm-hmm ... can touch earth's surface. It has to actually be- Mm-hmm

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like in the ground. Like cement- Mm-hmm ... works if- Yes ... it's not painted. It doesn't have to be- Yes ... like dirt and grass and that kind of thing. But just if you touch earth- Yeah ... w- that helps. Well, I mean, it helps discharge a lot of the static in all of us and really helps with mental health. But it also, we absorb electrons that way.

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We also, when we're in the right light environment and the red light, and when we have that full spectrum, our bodies are designed, um, to take that in and expand the water inside of us, the metabolic water- Mm ... which is full of electrons. There are a lot of ways to get electrons- Yes ... is what I'm saying. It's not just about the food.

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Yes. And I think food is one key, but there's so many ways to do it, and it's- Yeah ... very simple stuff. And really, it comes- Yeah ... down to get outside, take the kids. Like I, I don't y- if the, get in nature, take the kids. Yeah. If you have children, if they're not your children, that's okay, take somebody else's children.

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Get outside, because we all need, everybody needs to be really in harmony with our natural environment as best you can. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'm not perfect. None of us are perfect. Right. Yeah. I mean, I am not, um... Yeah, and, and the benefits that I've seen with my own eyes in my own life- Yeah ... and my son, who just turned 21 and has done a lot of this.

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Mm. And, and I asked him the other day, I'll, I'll mention this too, I asked him the other day- Yeah ... like what are his top five things that have helped him really come to a totally different place with his health- Mm-hmm ... and, um, with anxiety and panic attacks and all that, that he just, he doesn't experience it like he did before.

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And so I said, "What are your top five things?" And well, the first was God, but the second was sleep. So, okay. The, well those two, I mean, to be, uh, in that running, in that lineup, that is killer. Yeah. Yeah. And nutrition and exercise and all the things. Yeah. Like he's done a lot. Mm-hmm. But I think if people pick kind of what speaks to you, like where- Yeah

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do you feel like either it's the easiest place to start for you, you're like, "I, I know I can do that." Mm. Yeah. Like, I know I can start with, um, going outside in the morning, or I know I'm, I like sunsets, or whatever it is. Like, where can you start, or what do you know in your heart of hearts is the most important place for you to start?

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If you know your diet's a not, a mess, and your gut's a mess, that's probably the place to, to jump in. If you- Yeah ... are like, um, "My energy is so low, I, I know it has to be around energy." Whatat- wherever you feel like you can start- Sure ... you start and you do teeny tiny, and you just keep in the back of your mind that it's something about mitochondria is important, and you don't have to study applied quantum biology if you don't want to.

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Yeah. You just hold the intention that these little, teeny organelles inside of your cells that are your mitochondria, that are making your energy, making your water, that you're just gonna do whatever you can to try to help them and see what happens. Yeah, absolutely. No, that's beautifully said. And that it doesn't have to have this intense protocol and what have you, that it might be more bespoke and depend on the, on the person.

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And yet we can find this workability, and just the trust that our bodies are meant to heal, that this is the signal. There's information and a gift available. I think these are all beautiful framing, a way to frame it. I think there's an opportunity to maybe see what we can also learn based on how you're managing or re- managing, we wanna say managing.

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How we're relating to our own life. Yeah, yeah. Right? But before we get there, before I ask you questions on your sleep, is there anything... I know this is a huge topic, and you've so much amazing information. Was there anything glaring that we left out in the topic of kind of anxiety, sleep, the way you're thinking about all these things?

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No. I think I get really excited, so I'm glad that you're kind of, like, pulling me back in and pull it- Ah, no, it's great ... but I think the word trust, I think is important to just point out before we move- Okay ... into my personal, because- Right ... I have come to see that anxiety, the opposite of anxiety to me is not necessarily calm and peace.

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The opposite- Mm ... of anxiety is trust. And the calm and peace are byproducts of trust, and I mean that at every level. Like, trust in your own intuition, trust in something bigger than you, trust that the universe has your back, tru- like, trust on every level. And that takes- Mm ... um, you know, um, skin in the game.

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Like, it's- Yeah ... it's not- Yeah ... the easiest process, but that's really, I've found when I do the practices that, yes- Mm-hmm ... help my sleep, and yes, that returning to ourselves, and that- Mm-hmm ... getting in right relationship and harmony with nature and your natural environment, it's helped- Mm ... build trust. Like, I just- Mm

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have more trust- In nature, in the, the universe, in something higher than myself, in my own abilities- Yes ... and in my path. And I think for me, I had to really work with, um, trusting my child's journey because it was- Sure ... not at all what I wanted to be happening. But- Yeah ... that has been really the, the key to really moving into a place of recovery from anxiety.

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Wow. Yeah. So that's it. Oh, that's amazing. Well, I so appreciate that. And such a great kind of bow to put on this, a big topic is this- Yeah ... trust. It's so, so more, 'cause when you feel like you're in the throes of anxiety, it can just feel like, "Is that possible for me?" And so that reminder of yes- Right ... this is possible for each and every one of us, so beautifully said.

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Okay. Well then, super curious to hear, especially as someone that has navigated your own anxiety or for your kids and, or for your son, and just so many of the people that you've worked with, eager to hear how you're kind of structuring your own life to support that rhythmicity, the mitochondria support, et cetera.

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So our first question is, what does your nightly sleep routine look like right now? So I love to be in bed by 8:30. Um- Okay ... maybe early to bed- Yeah ... kinda, but I like to have time to just do, do nothing. I like- Yes ... and not say I'm meditating, but just kind of think about things and marinate- Mm-hmm ... on them.

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Yeah. I have a journal. I have probably- Great ... 15, it's just spiral notebooks, like- Sure ... old school spiral notebooks that I fill with junk. But at, um, usually right now, sometime around sunset, I like to go out And get a little bit of sunset light, and then after that, I'm- got the blue blockers on if I'm in light at all.

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I have the light bulbs. I've got, of course, circadian friendly light bulb- Yep. Yep ... next to my bed. And I don't, I'm not on electronics, which has been so hard for me, 'cause I like- Yes ... to work, and I will just work and work and work. And I always consider myself kind of a night owl. Mm-hmm. Sure. And then the more people I interviewed on my podcast and realized- Yes

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okay, from a circadian rhythm perspective, like, no, it's not helping any of us. So that's what, that's what my nightly routine is like. I am- Mm ... blue blockered up. I am off electronics. I have, um, yeah, that and my room does not have electronics in it at all. Mm. My bedroom. Oh, so good. And I love that journaling process, kind of time to reflect, decompress.

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Yeah, exactly. Get it out, out of our head onto paper. So good, and such a great component for helping support sleep. Loving all these. And then the second one, which sometimes need more explaining, but certainly not for someone like yourself, is what does your morning sleep routine look like with the idea that how we start our day can impact our sleep?

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Yeah. So I am an up with sunrise girl. It doesn't- Yes ... really matter where I am. Now, it's been, in certain countries, that is really hard. Yeah. 'Cause it's like 4:00 AM, and I'm like, "You gotta be kidding me. I gotta..." So I will literally crawl to a window, open it up, stick my eyeballs, like, in there, and just kinda lay my head.

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I've totally done that, yes. And let, even if I have to go back to bed, because I can't- Yep ... like, function. But I- Yes ... as soon as I can, I am up, I'm outside. I am in- Yeah ... sunrise. Even if I only have a few minutes, like if it's a busy, or if I'm catching a flight, I have now learned as best I can, we don't, we, we travel around, um, our circadian rhythms, helping our circadian- Yeah

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rhythms. But, you know, sometimes we leave before, um, sunrise, and I, if I do that, I have on blue blockers. Hmm. Yes. If I'm in light before sun has come up, then I do that. Yeah. But my normal routine is to wake a little before sunrise, and I'm outside. Amazing. I love this. And then our s- third question would be, what would we see in your environment?

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So, like, on your nightstand, in your sleep space. Yeah. I'm, um, I have a couple of stones on my nightstand. I can't remember exactly- Mm ... what names they are, but one is a rose quartz, I know that. Hmm. And one is supposed to help with non-native EMFs. Okay. Like I don't even know, but that's- Yes ... um, I have, um, a Buddha on my nightstand that has a rosary hanging on him.

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Hmm. So, you know, just my, I'm not Catholic, I'm not Buddhist, but I, just my spiritual stuff. Yeah. There is a sleep mask hanging on my lamp because- Hmm ... my dog likes to get my sleep mask and run with it if it's not- Yeah ... hung high. Okay. Systems. Yeah, so that's- Yeah ... that's what you'll see next to... Oh, and I have a clock that is not plugged into the wall, so it's a, um- Sure

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non-electric little... And it, the reason I got that one, it wasn't so much that I cared about it not being plugged in and the- Yeah ... non-native EMFs, but I wanted- Yeah ... something without blue light on it. Uh-huh. Yeah. And it has the little orange light. Yeah, I sleep on earthing sheets and linen. Mm-hmm. And I have a big bottle of water that is structured next to the bed usually.

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Yes. Blue blockers, a pen, and y- I have books, but I usually don't read much because once you realize that you have blue blockers on, it's not really easy to read. Yeah. Exactly. Good. I love this, and I've- Yeah ... noticed this often over the years of finding out what people have on their nightstand or in their space, is that often when people are just not struggling with their sleep in the same way, often it is more minimal, so like you're saying, right?

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Like, 'cause I've still had some of the people that are like, "Listen, I'm still struggling with my sleep," and what have you, and they've got like gadgets and gizmos and all these things to kind of rely on, externally focused. And yet we find that often this less is more. And the trust, it goes back to that trust that- Mm-hmm

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sleep will come to me and stay with me throughout the whole course of the night. So, so good. The last question would be, so far, what would you say has made the biggest change in how you relate to your sleep, or maybe said another way, biggest aha moment in your relationship to your sleep? Honestly, when I added, um, red light therapy- Yeah

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which I didn't think I needed to do. We didn't talk about it, but- Sure ... I was already doing sunrise, sunset, blocking- Yeah ... blue light, and so I just... And my sleep has always been... I've actually been a pretty good sleeper. Um- Oh, great. Well, I thought I was a really good sleeper, but I think it was mostly, um, I'm able to fall asleep really well and- Yes

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stay asleep, but I'm a hard sleeper. Anyway. Hmm. Yeah. I added the red light, and I could not believe the amount of focus and clarity and energy in the mornings that I would feel. Hmm. So even though my sleep has always been good, I ha- I never felt like a morning person. I was always like- Yeah ... "Do not speak to me."

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And I don't do caffeine. Right. So I was, you know... And I never thought I, I, I mean, I did caffeine for a long time before that, but not for 10 years. Yeah. Sure. And so to wake up with that kind of energy was really quite aha-ish, and that's when I started- Helping clients add that and a little more red light, and red light's available for free outside- Yeah

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from dawn to dusk. So if you wanna do that naturally, but I added actual red light therapy. Um, and I got a- Hmm ... red light therapy device, and that was eye-opening for my- Wow. And sorry, you said your system for the red light as far as just usage for that- Yeah ... like any call-outs, people are considering investing in red light, when do I do it, how long, all those details.

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Yeah. And, um, yeah, I hate to throw that in at the end. Sorry about that, but it's- Oh, no. Great ... a really helpful info. It's, this is what we find often, then when we hear more about how people are, what they're doing, then it brings up- Yeah ... all these other, yes, yes, tell us more type energy. Yeah. And I started, um, I have Midwest red light therapy, um- Mm-hmm

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devices, and I've found those to be helpful. But my good friend, Kelly Bento, owns Sole- um, Solewell. So it's, um, I think it means sun, sun well or something. Anyway, Solewell- Yeah ... is a red light therapy company. And those devices, I mean, yes, she's a friend- Yeah ... but I have gotten pretty much everything that she sells now because unbelievable quality of- Hmm.

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Yeah. And I'm so, um, I'm not gonna say addicted, but I love- ... the red light pad, the travel pad so much- Ooh ... that, and because when you put it on your belly- Mm-hmm ... now getting red light from the sky outside on our belly is really helpful, but it diversifies your gut microbiome. Yes. And it can be- So true ... so healing for people to have that.

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And I know so many people with aches and pains and things that keep them- Yeah ... up at night, and it, it's hard for them to fall asleep because they feel achy and ba- and those red li- red light, adding red light to their life has been really helpful. So, uh, 20 minutes a day is usually a good, but if people have five minutes or 10 minutes- Sure

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or whatever you have, if you get something cheap, you're probably gonna get a lot of flicker. Yes. And you don't want the flicker. You want something with- No ... decent quality, um, and is, you know, low non-native EMS and all things that you can do. But s- but get a high quality, as high quality as you can, and then do it, I would do it consistently every single day for five days or six days, and then take a little break and just see for yourself if it makes a difference in your energy And in your mood.

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So I look at energy, mood, and digestion. Those are really good ways of, and of course, if your sleep is improving, if you're working on your sleep, did it, is it helping or is it not? And just test for yourself about how long. Um, some people will tell me, "I need an hour in front of that red light panel." Mm.

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Right. And then- Totally ... I feel great. Some people are like, you know, two or three minutes a day and it seems to be really helpful. Ma- whatever you wanna do, but I would say play with it because whatever comes in the package and tells you- is probably just a ge- I mean, it is just a generalization, and it's- Yes

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not gonna necessarily be helpful for you. And I tend- I've always said, do it during the day when red light is available- Yes ... outside. Yes. But I ha- cannot tell you, uh, Mollie, how many people do it at night now. Yeah, yeah. And they swear by it. Yeah. For their sleep, for their mood, and I'm like, you know what?

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Do you, and- Yes ... do you at least for a little while if it's helpful, and if it feels like at some point- Yeah ... it's m- the opposite is happening, and it's not- Mm-hmm ... then maybe change it up. But- Yeah ... generally, I say do it when it's actually outside. Yeah, that's so funny. I feel like I've very similar call-outs for people, and yet- Yeah

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'cause most of it we're trying to use the blueprint of nature, and when would you have these things available, and what have you. But then I'll also say to your point, there can be cases where people are like, "This is my life, and there's no way," or, well, at least in their current paradigm, that I'm gonna add this in anytime soon.

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And it's gonna be in the evenings, and they love it, and they find benefits. So I appreciate that, 'cause I do think that is worth hearing when we're... 'cause I'll hear similar things. I think one call-out could be that sometimes it can be distinct from if we've got the really bright panel, and we're staring right into it with our eyes, and it's just aggressively bright.

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You know, 2,000 lux or more, right? Just- Yeah ... that could be a little activating. But then other people are like, "But I just ha- I put it on my," like you said, on the belly, or, "I put it on certain areas that are in pain," and it's not having that effect. So I do think there's something there to find the workability, and to not have rigid ways of being.

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Sometimes I think in that space it can, when we bring in this perfectionism, then it can be sometimes more stressful. More anxiety-proofy. Yes. And- The irony of it all, right? Yeah, and that's the thing, and back to your point, too, of just like sometimes people say, "This is gonna bring more anxiety, then we're not gonna do it."

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Yeah, yes. Like, here's the thing. If you're feeling more anxious, then it's just not for you. It's okay. Yeah, totally. And the... Yeah, and not to be so rigid. I think that- Yeah ... that would be trust and flexibility. Mm. Um, because yeah, d- you do your best, and I think a lot of the people who have chronic anxiety are very, um, on it.

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They are have- Yeah ... high standards, and they're- Yeah ... high achievers, and if you tell them, "This is the protocol," they are gonna follow that protocol and make it really stressful. Yes. And so I just tell them, "There's no strict protocol," and that sometimes that makes more stress. So you gotta work with people where they are- Yes

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and say, "Okay, here are the guidelines of- best use of your red light therapy, best u- Yes ... time to get outside in the day, and best times to eat, and those kinds of things. And just say, "But I'm gonna need you to be super, super kind to yourself." Mm. Yeah. And trust your own intuition. Mm-hmm. And trust that you will find your way.

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You found your way here You found your way to listening to this podcast. Yes. You will find your way- Hmm ... if you just keep trusting in the process of it, and yeah. Yeah. I love that, and the kind of closing it on this trust piece- Mm-hmm ... I think is a big deal because for what we see with people, and I've been there, when you're struggling with sleep and you just want this to be done, you want the solution to, okay, these people said I gotta do the X, Y, Z, and so then...

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But they're putting these expectations onto the behaviors. And so now these behaviors become laced in, you know, fix my problem, right? And so I think that this is such a beautiful and gentle way to reframe all of this, is anxiety is a signal, and this is gonna be a process, and be gentle with ourselves along the way.

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And have these expectations that this is going to be a journey, and we're retraining the body to have these safety signals. And often we don't get into these situations overnight, and we don't get out of them overnight, so to speak. It can take some time to get more acclimated to this new kind of lifestyle and not to put things onto them, 'cause we see that with sleep so commonly- Yeah

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as if, like, this thing that, all these things we're saying are just gonna be the a- automatic Ambien pill or something. And then throw the baby out with the bathwater when night one, it's not, like, suddenly eight hours of perfection. That's not what we're going for. So rolling with this, but just that trust being so, so important.

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So I so appreciate what you're sharing, and I'm clear that with so many people struggling with this for theirselves or people that are important to them, where can they go to work with you, be a part of your world, learn from you, et cetera? Yes. The best place to find me is on Instagram at dr_kelli with an I.

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I spend more time probably there interacting with people. Yeah. And then anxiety-recovery.com. Great. And go, you can go straight to the free resources first if you want. You can poke around. But we have digital products and courses, and then I train anxiety recovery coaches. Ooh. So if you're a practitioner listening and you're like, "Oh, I have anxious clients, and I don't necessarily know what to do with them"- Yeah

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then I would love for you to come work with us because, um, we have a lot of fun and a lot of interesting information. Or if somebody's a mental health, um, professional and they wanna come learn more about quantum health, we get that, that as well. Yeah. Oh, amazing. Well, so many things for people to wherever they're at in this journey- Yeah

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that they have resources and tools. So- Thank you so much for the work that you do and for taking the time to be here. Fascinating, fascinating. And I know we only just scratched the surface, so definitely go check out her work. We'll have all of your information in our show notes. And excited to continue to follow your journey and what you're getting out there.

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Congrats on the new launches of all of these ways of getting this kind of conversation out to the masses. I mean, this is the goal. When I was struggling with my sleep, and really so much of that anxiety piece when I- the different places that I would go would just be met with anti-anxiety medications, benzos, Z drugs, all the things, and it just doesn't have to go like that.

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So really appreciate the work you do. And you, thank you so much, and I love your work, and I'm so excited to know you. And yeah- Yes ... I look forward to more collaborations. Absolutely. More to come. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you. You've been listening to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level.

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Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet. Fun fact, I've never missed a Monday for over five years and counting, and it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to sleepisaskill.com/newsletter to sign up.

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